What do you think about Ogres in 8th ed?

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**Madmax1**

I know it's all speculation right now, but given the current rumors about 8th ed, what affect do you think it will have on Ogres? Do you think the rumored changes will make them a more competative army, or are they crap until they get a new codex? Just curious.

**Jin**

The change for required number of models to gain a rank bonus will be helpful, as will the amended rules for Killing Blow.

Not quite sure how much they'll be affected by the other changes, though.

**Boss Salvage**

There are some rumors that help ogres (crush attaks, fear as +1CR, 3-wide ranks, general quells panic, limited marching for superheavy units) while there are a lot that hurt them as well (initiative-based combat, great weapons last, no armor ablation, no fear outnumber, flanking only by ranked units, spam-casting nerf, 25% character cap, requirement of standards in units for objective capturing, step-up attaks, return of the gunline, return of mass CR infantry, extension of panic range, etc, etc).

So that's sounding like it's more against ogres than not, but I'll toss part of my hat in the boring Wait & See ring ... This summer I'll be getting my ogres to 2250 (with just 25% HQ) in preparation, I think things will at least get interesting to be an ogre once more. I'm holding out for a decent errata too (bull charge = impacts please!) when that big deluge of them hits post-8th.

- Salvage

**Madmax1**

What about the rumored affects on magic?

**Clthomps**

Every time you try to cast the same spell it becomes easier to dispel.

**Alpharius**

Do we feel confident enough in the rumors that we've heard to start making these judgments?

**Madmax1**

Now that we know more about what's in the 8th ed rules, I'll re-ask my question. What do you think about Ogres? Obviously, prior to this they were underpowered. But, with the changes to rank bonuses, do you think Ogres will now be a viable army? What changes do you think we'll see in the standard Ogre army build?

**Pedro Kantor**

I like the Ogres and i do think they can be a viable army with the forthcoming rule book.This next part is from WD 367 :A unit of Bulls 15 strong in 3 ranks can fight to full effect,46 S4 attacks at -2 save mod ( their clubs ).Plus 6 S6 Impact hits and 6 S4 Stomps and Gut magic to boost the S or T.I have to say i like the sound of that and with fortune on your side,it would blast away most ( if not all ) of opposing units and they are " just " a Core choice.All in all,they make a fearsome army and if you have not already,look up the 3000 point list for them in WD this month,

**Minsc**

Just a heads up: You're unlikely to get the full 46 attacks, unless attacking a low-offensive unit. Remember, you're striking at I2 for all but the impact hits. Don't make the mistake of hitting a Spear Wall with that unit.

What I mean: Say there's 42 Spearmen (6x7), easily possible since that requires a cost-per-model to be under 13 points. First, Ogres are taking three wounds (so one death) before striking. Next, being 20mm frontage (assume Goblins, Skeletons, Empire Spearmen, Skaven Clanrats, etcetera), that's a 120mm front - enough that you're only getting five Ogres in combat (so two are sitting it out).

That's a combined total of nine lost attacks right there (six from ends, one from casualty). Next comes the attacks back. Against a WS3 enemy (Clanrats, Empire), we're looking at about 12-13 casualties. Not too bad... until you realize you're at only +1 Rank and they're +5 still (meaning they remain stubborn). Against Gobbos / Skeletons, increases to 16-17 casualties (meaning +4, but still Stubborn / Undead in undead's case).

Now, for Undead, that unit is gibbed via combat resolution. Goblins, it depends on if they have a Boss nearby - considering that unit was only 162 before upgrades and even max pimping out (Fanatics, Netters, Full Command) is only 322, it's very likely they will have a character within the price limit. Empire Spearmen are likely as well, to my understanding being between 210 and 336 points (depending on points cost for Spearmen, I forget). In either case, you range from:

Undead: CR kill
Goblin / Empire / Skaven: Staring down Stubborn unit likely Ld7 or better.

Worse, it's very possible (yes, I know I left out impact hits and stomp) that the unit remains for two more player turns in combat. That Ogre Unit - that 550+ point unit - was held up by an Empire unit half the cost.

**ShivanAngel**

Half the cost? buahahaha

Try a unit of 50 skaven slaves for 100 points...

Ultimate cheap tarpit.

I think ogres got stronger, but i still think running them in a horde is a bad idea. The unit you attack will most likely be stubborn for at least a turn, probably more. Thats more then enough time to flank charge and wipe out that huge unit.

**radiohazard**

I got absolutely crushed by ogres today. I was playing Dwarfs.

My opponent had one huge unit of bulls and a few small units of Ironguts and Leadbelchers.

I couldn't bring enough firepower down to destroy even one unit as I was more concerned with the bull unit. I recognise that ogres are no where near as good in army list terms in comparison to Dwarfs, but having a huge unit like that, surrounded by smaller key units is a tactical nightmare. You can't kill that huge unit before the others are on you and when they are, you are just brown bread dead.
The only way I can think of beating the list is to learn how to prioritise your targets and wipe them out bit by bit.

Seriously, Ogres got a whole lot scarier with this edition. If an experienced player is playing ogres like my opponent today, you have to consider that you may actually lose. They are that damn good.

**Pedro Kantor**

Admittedly,the base attacks i put up from the WD are if they charge first and the new attacks from the second and third ranks.And,like any unit,they can be vulnerable to flank charge and a tarpit unit ( such as skaven slaves ) but i still like the Ogres a lot and really think they will be well worth an army for building and fighting with.As long as you learn from your battles,winning or losing,they should be a force to be reckoned with.

**radiohazard**

Ogres are a very fun army to play. Took my first outing with them last night and got a solid victory vs brets.

**Lexx**

I would say don't underestimate them. The bull horde tactic can be damn scary. They should at least be able to hold their own in 8th edition.

**radiohazard**

Ogres are a very fun army to play. Took my first outing with them last night and got a solid victory vs brets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ogres are a very fun army to play. Took my first outing with them last night and got a solid victory vs brets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wth??? Stupid triple post with delay.

**LunaHound**

Boss_Salvage wrote:There are some rumors that help ogres (crush attaks,

Stomp attacks?

**Waaagh_Gonads**

4 leadbelchers in 2x2 formation (so 2nd rank can shoot) is great due to small frontage, and can still remain effective if wounds are taken.

**Kroothawk**

What do you think about Ogres in 8th ed?
They are still ugly as hell

Actually I like them, good that they got a boost rulewise.

**barlio**

I'm kind of worried about Initiative 2, but Stomp and the Monstrous Infantry rules makes up for it.

Having access to the new Magic Items is going to be pretty sweet.
*2+ AS on my BSB
*Alternates to the Tenderizer
*4+ Ward Saves
*Magic Carpet (I'm not brave enough to try that).

**Tzeentchling9**

-Fighting in 2 ranks and Ogre sized(trolls, minotaurs, ogres, etc.) only need 3 models for ranks:
These are huge, Ogres are throwing out a lot of attacks each while still retaining their MSU maneuverability. The +1 combat rez for a rank helps some too.

-Speed:
Ogres are still M6 and while they won't be striking first by a long shot(I2), they'll usually get the +1 combat res for charging(little things adding up).

-Gnoblar Fighters:
Shooting in 2 ranks and being able to wound any high toughness on a 6 is awesome. Sure, they still bicker and suck in combat, but that is what the Ogres are for, not the Gnoblars! Pretty nifty buys for 2 points each.

-Thundermace:
Template touching model=model hit. Even with it now allowing normal armor saves --> TYRANT-SMASH!

-STOMP!
Monsterous Infantry in the front rank get an Always Strike Last "Impact hit" each round of combat. Nothing like adding a few more hits to help ogres out!

-Lots of glorious common magic items:
Quite a few of the Ogre magic items suck. It's just the fact of an old armybook, but lots of glorious combos now open before our 9-foot monsters.

-Extra Ranks for Combat Res are counted after combat, not before:
The kills ogres rely on actually matter for knocking down enemy combat res. now!

-Miscast chart:
We'll have to see how GW Erratas armies with their own Miscast chart concerning the new Loss of Control, but Ogre's(hell, even O&G's) miscast table are nowhere near as horrific as the new Loss of Control table.

That all being said, it depends on what(if anything) is changed in the upcoming FAQs. I can't think of anything made totally obsolete by 8th rules off the top of my head though.

**radiohazard**

I still don't rate thundermace. I'd rather have the +3 str GW from the OK book.

But you have nailed it on the head... The new CMI are awesome for ogres.

That armour with a ward save is pretty kool and the +1 movment banner is an auto include.

I think we should move onto army selection.

For the meantime I think butchers are useless because of the new magic system. So should we go for more bruisers instead???

And is the mass unit of Bulls with the Movement Banner an auto include??? The amount of times I've seen this unit distract an opposing player is insane.

I think we can all agree that there are still a lot of units that are just plain rubbish.

**sniperjolly**

I think that a single butcher with a dispell scroll will help keep nasties like the purple vortex grenade of xerxes at bay, along with a +2 to dispell. The butcher can also throw four dice at two spells and expect to see one go off. Which is probably better than a lone butche would get in 7th Ed.

**radiohazard**

If that's the case, why not go for a Tyrant and Slaughtermaster in 2k???

**Tzeentchling9**

radiohazard wrote:I still don't rate thundermace. I'd rather have the +3 str GW from the OK book.

Try the new "no partials" rule yet? against a unit 20mmx20mm models you are looking at 20 hits easily.

radiohazard wrote:If that's the case, why not go for a Tyrant and Slaughtermaster in 2k???

Only 100 points of anything to go between them in 2k. It's awesome that the Slaughtermaster will be able to be used though.

**ShivanAngel**

Dont forget fielding a butcher or slaughtermaster will also give you a +2/+4 to your dispell rolls, very handy against armies with a heavy magic phase.

**radiohazard**

I'm fully aware of the new partial rules, but the law of sods says I miss with that one attack all the time.