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1 x hive tyrant - lash whip & bonesword, scything talons, adrenal glands, acid blood, wings & hive commander

1 x hive tyrant - lash whip & bonesword, scything talons, adrenal glands, acid blood, wings & old adversary

2 x zoanthropes w/ myceptic spore

2 x hive guard

2 x hive guard

10 x termagants

10 x termagants

1 x tervigon - catalyst & cluster mines

1 x tervigon - catalyst & cluster mines

1 x trygon - adrenal glands

1 x trygon - adrenal glands

1 x trygon - adrenal glands


The tyrants move forward with the trygons backing them up. Hopefully a few models with get re-rolls thanks to one tyrants old adversary.

elites bust tanks.

tervigons spawn termgants, perhaps one can outflank, maybe.

That's it

Mercer...if your going for the deepstrike trygons and mycetic spore then I would put another Hive commander on the second Hive Tyrant. Let them all drop at a 2+ because then you got enough units to distract fire from your flying Hive Tyrants.

I'm not deep striking any trygons; just the zoanthropes only The trygons will start on the table with the hive tyrants giving me 5 monstrous creature targets which can move pretty quickly.

shogun wrote:Mercer...if your going for the deepstrike trygons and mycetic spore then I would put another Hive commander on the second Hive Tyrant. Let them all drop at a 2+ because then you got enough units to distract fire from your flying Hive Tyrants.

You can't stack 2+ HIVE COMMANDER ability, the only case accepted is Hive Commander + Swarm Leader (Swarm Lord ability).

Toban wrote:

shogun wrote:Mercer...if your going for the deepstrike trygons and mycetic spore then I would put another Hive commander on the second Hive Tyrant. Let them all drop at a 2+ because then you got enough units to distract fire from your flying Hive Tyrants.

You can't stack 2+ HIVE COMMANDER ability, the only case accepted is Hive Commander + Swarm Leader (Swarm Lord ability).

mercer wrote:I'm not deep striking any trygons; just the zoanthropes only The trygons will start on the table with the hive tyrants giving me 5 monstrous creature targets which can move pretty quickly.

The Hive Comm. upgrade seems really over priced if used only for the Spodding Zoans, try to find instead 30 points to give Onslaught to both Tervigons, this way you'll can run+shot+assault with 2 of your Trygons in turn 1.

Besides, almost at the same price, you'll can replace one of the Flyrant with a 2-Carnifexes-unit. Another one all-target unit with really longer survival and better efficiency in CC.

In fact they can't Assault if under Onslaught effects.
But they can run and shot, not bad anyway.

I love the Triple Trygons combo, but only in Apocalypse games ;D, I still find necessary at least a couple of Fexes because of many reasons.

They're slow of course but in CC they can destroy Land Raiders/Rhinos/Tactical 10-men troops/everything else with no problem.
Using they in a couple will give you also a TL effects on the to wounds rolls, priceless vs fast-tanks.

Besides, with the 3x Trygons combo, you can choose to field only a couple of them and keep the third in reserves, to have everyone deployed or even no one of then from the beginning but in most of this cases one wise adversary will manage to kill one Trygon per turn.
In the third Turn you'll be in CC with everything, loosing all the assault-fase-Trygon's-bonuses, with the 2C + 2T combo you'll can sacrifice the Fexes to gain all the DSing Trygons options instead.

One 2x Fexes unit is really one big-psico-target, excepecially if throwed running ahead vs priced Land Raiders.., so I'm also considering to field 2x-2x Zoanthropes units directly deployed with no Spod. They still have the invulnerable save and this will help to create a simil ARMOR SATURATION effect. ;D

mercer wrote:I'm not deep striking any trygons; just the zoanthropes only The trygons will start on the table with the hive tyrants giving me 5 monstrous creature targets which can move pretty quickly.

if your not deepstriking then your units will get shot to pieces (I think the will anyway..... ). The start with the Hive Tyrants and work there way up to the Trygons. Maybe the will have a thunderhammer/terminator unit and then the will fire at the trygons first because the terminators can take the Hive Tyrants because the only got 4 attacks. You still only use your tervigons to sit on a target/counter? I think you need the termagaunt backup for your trygons and then you should give your tervigons toxin sacs and edrenal glands. A few orks with a powerclaw can take down a trygon but struggle against two fresh termagaunt units with furious charge and reroll to wound (toxinsacs).

Just for the record...you dont think catalyst is great??????? you would trade the catalyst???????????? A feel no painsave for your Trygons isnt great????? Your Weird......

lash whip + acid blood = funny outcome. Nothing like taking that I test at 1.

I get what your trying to do with this list, I think walking the trygons in a lot of games might be a mistake, there are lots of armies that wont want to engage you and will do everything they can to sit at the board edge all game. The ability to drop trygons in, no mishap, and make the enemy focus all fire on them is great. The rest of your force walks up unharmed, and generally speaking, its impossible to kill 3 trygons in 1 round of shooting, most armies will struggle killing 1 actually.

Just so mathhammer can somewhat be our friend, it takes 12 lascannons on BS4 models to kill 1 trygon. How many armies are running 36 lascannons to kill all 3 when they drop.....0. Most dont even have 12 lol. So basically, they get scarred, waste tons of shooting, and then you are in their face assaulting turn 3.

anyways onto the listy, it looks like a solid list to me, covers everything, lots of AT, lots of CC, nice aura of buffs, good troops, lots of MC, nice fast aspect with the winged tyrants. I like it.

Choosing Onslaught doesn't means replacing Catalyst.
Tervigons without Catalyst are really a bad choice imho.

Toban wrote:In fact they can't Assault if under Onslaught effects.
But they can run and shot, not bad anyway.

I love the Triple Trygons combo, but only in Apocalypse games ;D, I still find necessary at least a couple of Fexes because of many reasons.

They're slow of course but in CC they can destroy Land Raiders/Rhinos/Tactical 10-men troops/everything else with no problem.
Using they in a couple will give you also a TL effects on the to wounds rolls, priceless vs fast-tanks.

Besides, with the 3x Trygons combo, you can choose to field only a couple of them and keep the third in reserves, to have everyone deployed or even no one of then from the beginning but in most of this cases one wise adversary will manage to kill one Trygon per turn.
In the third Turn you'll be in CC with everything, loosing all the assault-fase-Trygon's-bonuses, with the 2C + 2T combo you'll can sacrifice the Fexes to gain all the DSing Trygons options instead.

One 2x Fexes unit is really one big-psico-target, excepecially if throwed running ahead vs priced Land Raiders.., so I'm also considering to field 2x-2x Zoanthropes units directly deployed with no Spod. They still have the invulnerable save and this will help to create a simil ARMOR SATURATION effect. ;D

Right so onslaught will only be a benefit for a shooting unit, or a unit which has fleet so you can run, shoot and then assault. So trygons would work nicely on but not on carnifexes say.

Eh, trygons have fleet so have a potential 18" assault range - that's not slow. Could be in assault by turn 2.

shogun wrote:

mercer wrote:I'm not deep striking any trygons; just the zoanthropes only The trygons will start on the table with the hive tyrants giving me 5 monstrous creature targets which can move pretty quickly.

if your not deepstriking then your units will get shot to pieces (I think the will anyway..... ). The start with the Hive Tyrants and work there way up to the Trygons. Maybe the will have a thunderhammer/terminator unit and then the will fire at the trygons first because the terminators can take the Hive Tyrants because the only got 4 attacks. You still only use your tervigons to sit on a target/counter? I think you need the termagaunt backup for your trygons and then you should give your tervigons toxin sacs and edrenal glands. A few orks with a powerclaw can take down a trygon but struggle against two fresh termagaunt units with furious charge and reroll to wound (toxinsacs).

Just for the record...you dont think catalyst is great??????? you would trade the catalyst???????????? A feel no painsave for your Trygons isnt great????? Your Weird......

Starting will be 3 trygons and 2 hive tyrants and 2 tervigons so that's 7 monstrous creatures. I do not think all of that will get shot to pieces.... If I deep strike units I cannot assault until turn 3, on foot I could get a turn 2 assault in. I've done both and both take the same amount of wounds either way.

I can easily rush the termagants behind trygons; that wouldn't be a issue. But considering you say everything will be shot up, apparently, then it makes no odds does it? Though what you said about the hive tyrant is the same for any tyrant in any list situation against a army with hammernators.

If I give toxin sacs to the tervigons and back the trygons up with termagants then that's not going to work is it? Best backing up the tyrant with termagants as I have old adversary so they can re-roll and they will go first because of the tyrants lash whip.

I've sued catalyst in the past, agaisnt termagants doesn't save many. Any smart opponent would fire ap2 and ap3 weapons to get past the trygons armour save and by pass feel no pain, so a waste casting on them. It would only benefit in a army which doesn't have a huge amount of ap, say guard in some cases.

Trygon Prime with Onslaught is great. There will be a lot of firepower directed at one of the MCs each turn if the opponent is smart. Otherwise they are risking being overrun by multiple MCs.

I personally like the Trygon Prime a lot. With Adrenal Glands and Regeneration it ends up being 275 points. Expensive yes but also able to take out most stuff thrown at it. S7 and I5 on the charge means most things will be suffering if not completely destroyed. Add in Shooting with an Assault 12 S5 AP5 gun and it's just plain nasty. Onslaughted you get an assault range of 13-18 inches while hitting with about 6 S5 shots beforehand.

As for going against Terminators with TH and SS - simply outrun them. Onslaught the Trygon and Shoot then run away. Take a note from the Tau playbook of shooting and running away. 3++ save is nasty but with not shooting weapons the unit can simply be outrun.

5 MCs walking across the board will only hurt you in spearhead deployment. I would rethink the strategy then or when facing IG artillery. A S5 shot can glance/penetrate most vehicles on the rear. Deepstriking behind enemy lines for rear shots with that many hits will surely score a wrecked vehicle or one that's at least pretty banged up.

maybe not all 7 MC's will get shot to pieces...but the Hive Tyrants and Trygons will..and the few that reach the enemies units will get killed in close combat.

You cannot get in close combat with your Hive Tyrant AND termagaunts. A smart player will kill your termagaunts and the Hive will lose the combat and has to do a lot of "fearless"saves. Keep all gaunts and MC's apart from each other.

You can also make a Hivetyrant with 3 Tyrant guard and a attached Prime warrior. You can shield them with gaunts so you get a 4+ coversave and you can divide the wounds... its alot of attacks against a terminator squad and better than two flying hive tyrants because you will probably lose at least one flying hive tyrant before you hit the enemies line...

I believe you can still use the Feel no Pain against ap3 weapons. a extra 4+save against Missle launchers is great and dont forget that all small fire will still go to the MC's because the only got that 3+ save. I killed a Trygon with a few droppod-stormbolters once.....

That's my plan about the monstrous creatures. It's either lose one but that doesn't matter as I have loads or take wounds on several but still have my beasts. Casting onslaught on the prime would definately be a benefit, though I don't have a prime but it would still work for other trygons reasonably well.

I can still easily deep strike units if required, worst case is 3+ second turn and 2+ third turn. I can just hide away until then if I wanted. Ihave done the deep strike and shot rear armour before and it works so-so, but it can do the trick.

rogueeyes wrote:Trygon Prime with Onslaught is great. There will be a lot of firepower directed at one of the MCs each turn if the opponent is smart. Otherwise they are risking being overrun by multiple MCs.

I personally like the Trygon Prime a lot. With Adrenal Glands and Regeneration it ends up being 275 points. Expensive yes but also able to take out most stuff thrown at it. S7 and I5 on the charge means most things will be suffering if not completely destroyed. Add in Shooting with an Assault 12 S5 AP5 gun and it's just plain nasty. Onslaughted you get an assault range of 13-18 inches while hitting with about 6 S5 shots beforehand.

As for going against Terminators with TH and SS - simply outrun them. Onslaught the Trygon and Shoot then run away. Take a note from the Tau playbook of shooting and running away. 3++ save is nasty but with not shooting weapons the unit can simply be outrun.

5 MCs walking across the board will only hurt you in spearhead deployment. I would rethink the strategy then or when facing IG artillery. A S5 shot can glance/penetrate most vehicles on the rear. Deepstriking behind enemy lines for rear shots with that many hits will surely score a wrecked vehicle or one that's at least pretty banged up.

why would you pick onslaught if you can give your big CCsnake Feel no pain(Catalyst)? The fact that you suggest that you can "dodge" a terminatorsquad and shoot them with your cowardly pulse thingies.. makes me Laugh... you've got a big Close combatsnake and you use it for driveby shooting....

The bonus of onslaught is the big snake can move, run, then shoot and then assault. Shells out more damage by getting close and doing the damage, closing that gap quicker.

Though you mentioned terminators, well I would you cowardly pulse things because you don't want to assault them and feel no pain on the trygon against terminators isn't going to work.

Hi mark, whats up?

I haven't had a chance to play against the new tyranids yet, but just from theory, taking onslaught over catalyst is the right choice. No-one's going to shoot much besides AP1-2 at those trygons anyway, and the move-shoot-run-assault is a big bonus for those guys.

Maybe it'd be better to include 1 flying tyrant (to keep up with the trygons and control them) and 1 with guard (more durable).

Seems to me that 2 zoanthropes is enough for what's essentially a suicide unit. Why not drop it to 2 zoanthropes (still a very good chance against any tank) and bump one hive guard unit up to 3?

Hey Jasper you ok mate? You in africa?

Aye mate, spot on about the trygons.

I've done a flying tyrant and foot tyrant before. The foot ones lag behind and can get picked off. The flying ones can dive in, though against the wrong enemy models they can die swiftly.

Totting up the points I'm over by 60 points which I didn't realise. So I am down to 2 zoanthropes which makes this list bang on 2k.

Interesting take with the flying Tyrants. You'll be coming at your opponent quickly with lots of big stuff (similar to the idea behind just having 3 Trygons, but much more heavy) quickly. I'd be worried about the Tyrants/Trygons being vulnerable to your opponent's dedicated CC units. Sometimes they can be really hard to deal with, and they tend to have a huge threat range (thing like TWC, Land Raider based Termies, etc). I'd also be worried about a Land Raider or other fast threat just driving around/through your fast moving big guys and smashing into the exposed Tervigons.

What does Acid Blood do? I don't have my codex right next to me at the moment. Also is it possible t oget a second Bone Sword on each of the Tyrants?

Dropping Adrenal Glands from the Trygons and Cluster Mines from the Tervigons might get you enough points to get that third Zoanthrope back as well. Sure you lose a bit of explosiveness with the Trygons, but they aren't going to be too scared of things striking at initiative with them anyway, T6 and a 3+ with optional FNP seems like a good way to mitigate damage from lower strength-higher speed attacks.

Still, 26 T6 wounds probably charging on turn 2 seems pretty scary!

Hey bud I'll have that problem against cc units no matter the tyrant build.

Cluster mines are free and tyrant can only take whip and sword. Point of acid blood forces initiative test but whip makes models i1

shogun wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Trygon Prime with Onslaught is great. There will be a lot of firepower directed at one of the MCs each turn if the opponent is smart. Otherwise they are risking being overrun by multiple MCs.

I personally like the Trygon Prime a lot. With Adrenal Glands and Regeneration it ends up being 275 points. Expensive yes but also able to take out most stuff thrown at it. S7 and I5 on the charge means most things will be suffering if not completely destroyed. Add in Shooting with an Assault 12 S5 AP5 gun and it's just plain nasty. Onslaughted you get an assault range of 13-18 inches while hitting with about 6 S5 shots beforehand.

As for going against Terminators with TH and SS - simply outrun them. Onslaught the Trygon and Shoot then run away. Take a note from the Tau playbook of shooting and running away. 3++ save is nasty but with not shooting weapons the unit can simply be outrun.

5 MCs walking across the board will only hurt you in spearhead deployment. I would rethink the strategy then or when facing IG artillery. A S5 shot can glance/penetrate most vehicles on the rear. Deepstriking behind enemy lines for rear shots with that many hits will surely score a wrecked vehicle or one that's at least pretty banged up.

why would you pick onslaught if you can give your big CCsnake Feel no pain(Catalyst)? The fact that you suggest that you can "dodge" a terminatorsquad and shoot them with your cowardly pulse thingies.. makes me Laugh... you've got a big Close combatsnake and you use it for driveby shooting....

Because in close combat you get hit back against the squad whereas shooting you do not. This is a vacuum case and does not include anything else on the table. Why on earth would you want to put a model with a regular 3+ save against 5 models with a 3++ save? You're strength on the charge would be 7. With TH theirs is 8. Attack wise - you have 7 attacks on the charge - they have 10 base. You are outnumbered so why wouldn't you drag the unit around the board? It's the most efficient way to kill a TH/SS squad since they have NO range weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Hi mark, whats up?

I haven't had a chance to play against the new tyranids yet, but just from theory, taking onslaught over catalyst is the right choice. No-one's going to shoot much besides AP1-2 at those trygons anyway, and the move-shoot-run-assault is a big bonus for those guys.

Maybe it'd be better to include 1 flying tyrant (to keep up with the trygons and control them) and 1 with guard (more durable).

Seems to me that 2 zoanthropes is enough for what's essentially a suicide unit. Why not drop it to 2 zoanthropes (still a very good chance against any tank) and bump one hive guard unit up to 3?

Anoth solution to this is to make the trygon's trygon primes. They become synapse creatures.

rogueeyes wrote:

shogun wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Trygon Prime with Onslaught is great. There will be a lot of firepower directed at one of the MCs each turn if the opponent is smart. Otherwise they are risking being overrun by multiple MCs.

I personally like the Trygon Prime a lot. With Adrenal Glands and Regeneration it ends up being 275 points. Expensive yes but also able to take out most stuff thrown at it. S7 and I5 on the charge means most things will be suffering if not completely destroyed. Add in Shooting with an Assault 12 S5 AP5 gun and it's just plain nasty. Onslaughted you get an assault range of 13-18 inches while hitting with about 6 S5 shots beforehand.

As for going against Terminators with TH and SS - simply outrun them. Onslaught the Trygon and Shoot then run away. Take a note from the Tau playbook of shooting and running away. 3++ save is nasty but with not shooting weapons the unit can simply be outrun.

5 MCs walking across the board will only hurt you in spearhead deployment. I would rethink the strategy then or when facing IG artillery. A S5 shot can glance/penetrate most vehicles on the rear. Deepstriking behind enemy lines for rear shots with that many hits will surely score a wrecked vehicle or one that's at least pretty banged up.

why would you pick onslaught if you can give your big CCsnake Feel no pain(Catalyst)? The fact that you suggest that you can "dodge" a terminatorsquad and shoot them with your cowardly pulse thingies.. makes me Laugh... you've got a big Close combatsnake and you use it for driveby shooting....

Because in close combat you get hit back against the squad whereas shooting you do not. This is a vacuum case and does not include anything else on the table. Why on earth would you want to put a model with a regular 3+ save against 5 models with a 3++ save? You're strength on the charge would be 7. With TH theirs is 8. Attack wise - you have 7 attacks on the charge - they have 10 base. You are outnumbered so why wouldn't you drag the unit around the board? It's the most efficient way to kill a TH/SS squad since they have NO range weaponry.

oh..yes..the best way to beat Thunderhammer terminators is the Trygons pulse.... The big snake is a combat monster so you should use it like that. 7 attacks with reroll to hit means 6 hits and 5 wounds... thats five 3+ inv. save. you kill about two and get 6 attacks in return and gain 2 or 3 wounds. after that you should have backup from your tervigons with fresh spawned gaunts. If you leave a Trygon in the open it will die.

picking onslaught instead of catalyst is sillytalk..... you really think that a trygon will only attract ap1/2 weapons? what about missle launchers, lasguns, loota's, heavy bolters, misslepods, etc..

Shogun, I think your position here is a bit confused. Trygons, or any monstrous creature, should never take on full squads of thunderhammer terminators in assault, if there's any other option. And with your idea of catalyst, they'd only get worse - your FNP would be useless, and you'd have given up the useful onslaught bonuses.

Is a trygon's shooting going to kill a unit of terminators? Course not. But 2 trygons and a unit of gaunts can put down a couple models so the squad can be wiped out before attacking when the trygons do assault it. Onslaught is a lot better for that than catalyst.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Hi mark, whats up?

I haven't had a chance to play against the new tyranids yet, but just from theory, taking onslaught over catalyst is the right choice. No-one's going to shoot much besides AP1-2 at those trygons anyway, and the move-shoot-run-assault is a big bonus for those guys.

Maybe it'd be better to include 1 flying tyrant (to keep up with the trygons and control them) and 1 with guard (more durable).

Seems to me that 2 zoanthropes is enough for what's essentially a suicide unit. Why not drop it to 2 zoanthropes (still a very good chance against any tank) and bump one hive guard unit up to 3?

Yes its better to shoot with the pulse instead of using the feel no pain against thunderhammer terminators..thats not the point, but you pick the onslaught power INSTEAD of catalyst. Why? are you only playing against terminator armies? because you think its great that you can shoot with a few pulse shots before attacking? These big snakes need to be in close combat and cannot stay back for sum driveby shooting. To get in CC you need to survive the first (and second) shooting turn. For that you need the Feel no Pain. Simple as that. When your facing Spacewolfs with missle launchers you will be gratefull.. Even against thunderhammer terminators your trygon can survive first and second turn but yes, he will need backup.

any MC hates TH/SS.....except the swarmlord, he eats them. Otherwise your tossing that trygon out in one round of CC especially if he was charged, 15 attacks killing on 2+ hurts, a lot.

Nids handle TH/SS by mass swarming and making them take lots and lots of saves. Same way other armies kill TH/SS really. Either tarpit with 20 hormagaunts or they eventually die by them, rolling enough 1's

Thanks for all the comments, sorry I haven't replied to some I was busy at work and didn't refresh the page often and I haven't been on at the weekend.

A few things though:

Shogun - I doubt any army can kill 3 trygons and 2 hive tyrants by turn 2. That's a total of 20 wounds between them there. You'd be lucky to kill one.

As for deep striking, I've done this before. You deep strike in and you'll stand there and get shot. You won't be in assault until turn 3. If you start on the board you're giving a lot more targets for a start, sure you'll take wounds and maybe lose a monster but it's the same result if you deep strike in. Only difference is you can potentially be in assault by turn 2.

About catalyst and onslaught, you say armies will shoot all the big daddies down. To do that you need high strength low ap weapons which will by pass feel no pain anyway. It would be useful when playing against armies which don't have huge amounts of fire power with AP. As previously mentioned with onslaught it can be cast on other gribblies like catalyst but the thing is you can move further and assault; so the trygon can blast away and perhaps score a few wounds and then assault.

With regards to the terminators I certainly would avoid them, for a limited amount of time anyway. I'd shoot them and leave about 2-3 left. I'd then fire paroxysm at them with a tyrant and assault along with a trygon. Those terminators now need 5+ to hit, providing they survive the attacks from the tyrant and trygon.

mercer wrote:Shogun - I doubt any army can kill 3 trygons and 2 hive tyrants by turn 2. That's a total of 20 wounds between them there. You'd be lucky to kill one.

the probably cant....but most likely the can kill one each turn. You need that Catalyst to make sure that only the S8-AP2 weapons can hurt an Trygon.

mercer wrote:As for deep striking, I've done this before. You deep strike in and you'll stand there and get shot. You won't be in assault until turn 3. If you start on the board you're giving a lot more targets for a start, sure you'll take wounds and maybe lose a monster but it's the same result if you deep strike in. Only difference is you can potentially be in assault by turn 2.

Iam not saying you should...I dont let them deepstrike either..

mercer wrote: About catalyst and onslaught, you say armies will shoot all the big daddies down. To do that you need high strength low ap weapons which will by pass feel no pain anyway. It would be useful when playing against armies which don't have huge amounts of fire power with AP. As previously mentioned with onslaught it can be cast on other gribblies like catalyst but the thing is you can move further and assault; so the trygon can blast away and perhaps score a few wounds and then assault.

you cannot move (run) further you can only shoot ONCE before assault (range 12). You trade an extra 4+ save against ALL other weapons with ap3 or more so that you can shoot ONCE with 6 shots, Bskill 3, S5. Do you only play against lascannon armies? Wich kind of armies do you play against?

mercer wrote: With regards to the terminators I certainly would avoid them, for a limited amount of time anyway. I'd shoot them and leave about 2-3 left. I'd then fire paroxysm at them with a tyrant and assault along with a trygon. Those terminators now need 5+ to hit, providing they survive the attacks from the tyrant and trygon.

I know you dont like The Tervigon with Toxinsacs and adrenal glance but he's the best unit to kill a group of terminators. Then you can let the Trygons kill the other units. most marine armies (2000 points) got those terminators and when the kill 2 monsters by shooting you dont got enough Trygons/Hive tyrants to kill those terminators.

shogun wrote:

mercer wrote:Shogun - I doubt any army can kill 3 trygons and 2 hive tyrants by turn 2. That's a total of 20 wounds between them there. You'd be lucky to kill one.

the probably cant....but most likely the can kill one each turn. You need that Catalyst to make sure that only the S8-AP2 weapons can hurt an Trygon.

mercer wrote:As for deep striking, I've done this before. You deep strike in and you'll stand there and get shot. You won't be in assault until turn 3. If you start on the board you're giving a lot more targets for a start, sure you'll take wounds and maybe lose a monster but it's the same result if you deep strike in. Only difference is you can potentially be in assault by turn 2.

Iam not saying you should...I dont let them deepstrike either..

mercer wrote: About catalyst and onslaught, you say armies will shoot all the big daddies down. To do that you need high strength low ap weapons which will by pass feel no pain anyway. It would be useful when playing against armies which don't have huge amounts of fire power with AP. As previously mentioned with onslaught it can be cast on other gribblies like catalyst but the thing is you can move further and assault; so the trygon can blast away and perhaps score a few wounds and then assault.

you cannot move (run) further you can only shoot ONCE before assault (range 12). You trade an extra 4+ save against ALL other weapons with ap3 or more so that you can shoot ONCE with 6 shots, Bskill 3, S5. Do you only play against lascannon armies? Wich kind of armies do you play against?

mercer wrote: With regards to the terminators I certainly would avoid them, for a limited amount of time anyway. I'd shoot them and leave about 2-3 left. I'd then fire paroxysm at them with a tyrant and assault along with a trygon. Those terminators now need 5+ to hit, providing they survive the attacks from the tyrant and trygon.

I know you dont like The Tervigon with Toxinsacs and adrenal glance but he's the best unit to kill a group of terminators. Then you can let the Trygons kill the other units. most marine armies (2000 points) got those terminators and when the kill 2 monsters by shooting you dont got enough Trygons/Hive tyrants to kill those terminators.

Well you've just agreed with my point. You originally said trygons and tyrants would die moving across the board, sure I'd lose one per turn but I cannot lose anything if they're locked in assault.

The bonus of onslaught if you can move, run, shoot and then assault. Just basically allows you to shoot before assaulting allowing you to soften up a unit more. Doesn't let you move further, just shoot further if that makes sense? If I did play against lascannon armies then catalyst is of no use. The armies I play against are all mech and have melta, plasma in, power weapons, terminators, etc. I play against guard, tyranids, chaos space marines, daemons, orks, eldar in fact pretty much everything except tau and witch hunters lol.

The tervigon would wound terminators on a 3+ but taking toxin sacs makes that now a 4+. Only benefit is you get re-rolls but still only 50/50 of getting that roll in the first place. I certainly wouldn't send a tervigon against terminators and they're certainly not best against terminators, did you forget the trygon with 7 attacks on the charge which can re-roll to hit?

mercer wrote:
Well you've just agreed with my point. You originally said trygons and tyrants would die moving across the board, sure I'd lose one per turn but I cannot lose anything if they're locked in assault.

No..you just can't lose any Trygon or Hive Tyrant in Close combat by SHOOTING. You will probably lose one MC a turn by shooting and the 2 left that will get in close combat can probably be killed IN close combat because your facing a 2000 points army. At first you got two Hive commander and your trygons died to fast EVEN when the drop on a 2+ in turn 2. Why is that now any different? You will not get in close combat in turn 2 unless you play against sum stupid players!

mercer wrote:
The bonus of onslaught if you can move, run, shoot and then assault. Just basically allows you to shoot before assaulting allowing you to soften up a unit more. Doesn't let you move further, just shoot further if that makes sense? If I did play against lascannon armies then catalyst is of no use. The armies I play against are all mech and have melta, plasma in, power weapons, terminators, etc. I play against guard, tyranids, chaos space marines, daemons, orks, eldar in fact pretty much everything except tau and witch hunters lol.

Please answer me this question:

you rather want the opportunity to shoot ONCE with your Trygon instead of the 4+ feel no Pain save against:

SHOOTING
Space marine::bolters, stormbolters,heavy bolters, missle launchers, autocannons, sternguard poisonous ammo etc.
Guard:: mass lasguns(order), autocannons, missle launchers, heavy (sponsors) bolters, battle cannons (ap3) etc.
Orks:: loota's (dont need to mention more...its enough).
Eldar: scatter lasers, missle launchers, shurikken thingies in combination with guide and doom, etc.

CLOSE COMBAT
-Space marine:: all normal space marine attacks.
Orks:: normal (trukk)orkboys and nobs with mass attacks.
Tyranids: poisonous gaunts/hormagaunts!

and for the rest all normal attacks you can get in close combat!

please anwser this question with a Yes or No...

mercer wrote:
The tervigon would wound terminators on a 3+ but taking toxin sacs makes that now a 4+. Only benefit is you get re-rolls but still only 50/50 of getting that roll in the first place. I certainly wouldn't send a tervigon against terminators and they're certainly not best against terminators, did you forget the trygon with 7 attacks on the charge which can re-roll to hit?

O sorry, I thought you know i would never trow a loss tervigon against a group of terminator. of course you let him make anti-terminator GAUNTBABIES!

Tervigon with toxinsacs and edrenal glands --> make about 10-15 gaunts --> gaunts move 6 inch --> shoot with flesborers --> and assault terminators!!!!!!! Next turn you get more backup or make a new group of gaunts (if possible).

I've played variants of this list several times and you certainly don't lose a monstrous creature a turn. Probably one every but one turn. I'm not running two hive commanders, if I deep strike trygons they won't be in assault until turn 3 and all guns point at them as they deep strike on enemy soil - I've already explained this already. I will get in close combat on turn 2 because you start at least 12" in and then move 6" run 6" and assault 6" is 30" move. If the other play starts 12" in that's 42" and lets not forget there movement phase. Only time I won't be in assault by turn 2 is if there army is a static gunline, I was in assault by turn 3 when this happened but my trygons had hid behind terrain and not took any wounds

As I've already said a smart player will fire ap2 and ap1 shots at the trygons to get past the armour save and feel no pain - this has happened before so feel no pain is wasted. In other situations like you said it's useful.

Your words were the tervigon is the best unit to kill terminators with. If you send termagants against terminators then it's not the tervigon killing terminators is it, right? The tervigon is sitting there looking pretty. So let's retract that statement you made, tervigons aren't good at killing terminators but pumped up termagants are.

mercer wrote:I've played variants of this list several times and you certainly don't lose a monstrous creature a turn. Probably one every but one turn. I'm not running two hive commanders, if I deep strike trygons they won't be in assault until turn 3 and all guns point at them as they deep strike on enemy soil - I've already explained this already. I will get in close combat on turn 2 because you start at least 12" in and then move 6" run 6" and assault 6" is 30" move. If the other play starts 12" in that's 42" and lets not forget there movement phase. Only time I won't be in assault by turn 2 is if there army is a static gunline, I was in assault by turn 3 when this happened but my trygons had hid behind terrain and not took any wounds

normal (long table edge) deployment you are 24 inch away from the enemies line. first turn: you walk 6 inch....run a D6. Second turn:...walk 6 inch and run a D6 and then assault 6 inch. So you got between 20 and 30 inch IF you can assault the second turn. To get to the enemies deployment zone you need to roll at least a 6 with 2D6 and move in a straight line. Its possible but the enemy only has to take step back and you cannot assault in turn 2 and shoot the fastest trygon/Hive Tyrant first. If the enemy moves forward when he is facing 5 flying/running closecombat monstrous then he deserves to die. And if he cannot shoot down a single MC first turn with a 2000 point army he should change his armylist.

mercer wrote: As I've already said a smart player will fire ap2 and ap1 shots at the trygons to get past the armour save and feel no pain - this has happened before so feel no pain is wasted. In other situations like you said it's useful.

I know this but your not answering my question!!! Yes or No(look at my previous post)!!! Your definitely in denial...

mercer wrote:Your words were the tervigon is the best unit to kill terminators with. If you send termagants against terminators then it's not the tervigon killing terminators is it, right? The tervigon is sitting there looking pretty. So let's retract that statement you made, tervigons aren't good at killing terminators but pumped up termagants are.

iam sorry... I thought is was logically that you use the newborn termagaunts to assault the Terminators. Nobody sends a tervigon to assault a group of terminators... thats just as foolish as taking onslaught over catalyst....he wait a minute....