Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So we've got IG veterans now in 5e, and they're troop choices, which is nice. But we've lost the doctrines from older codexes (Codicies?) and it makes a lot of older builds, not quite right.


So here's the idea I'm thinking. Make an alternate option, that still counts as veterans:

Change the statline, to have WS of 4 instead of BS of 4.

Give them back the option of having a laspistol and CC weapon for all troopers.

Instead of HW options, let them have up to 4 troopers take power weapons, and restrict special weapons to 2 troopers.

I can see them keeping the same doctrines they already have, and roughly the same points.

I can see this as either catachan veterans, or specialist assault troops, which the guard currently has.. Well none of really.

Combine this with some of the other trickeries of the new IG things, and you could have a fairly powerful unit.

I could see a veteran unit that gets WS4, but I don't think that any IG unit would have multiple power weapons fluffwise.

I could see an alternative unit, keep the current Vets, but make these something like SpecOps. I would give them WS4, L-pistols and CCW, and some sort of ability that represents a sneak attack, such as they always strike first, or they reduce the enemies' attacks by one.

Valk

I'm thinking some sort of honor guard unit, or some sort of unit from an upper hive area. Or it could just be that their skill in effect gives them power weapons.

I didn't just want to bump their attacks, and I didn't want to give them extra special rules like counter charge or anything like that (especoially since guard can get those if you like special characters)

Though maybe something like that would be more appropriate than several power weapons. I was just trying to think of some way to make them CC savvy other than the laspistol and CC weapon road. Maybe let them take bolt pistols as a 1 or 2 point upgrade each for all of them, instead of allowing any heavy weapons.

Veterans that have simply lived long enough to aquire more "interesting" weapons?

Throw some jet packs on them. IG jump troops in Epic, so why not give them that option in 40K.

I personally haven't had the opportunity to play in Epic, so I'm completely unfamiliar with anything found in it unfortunately.

But yes, I figured it was going to be a hard-nosed group of very determined vets who have survived long enough and been trained well enough for their given role. You may lose 3-4 sergeants or so in a campaign, but that doesn't mean his shinys go away, so they tend to accumulate in veteran squads, so why not see several in one vet squad? It's possible anyhow, and the sheer multitude of PWs that you can find in guard armies (Especially infantry heavy ones) is actually quite large, even if they're spread out.

But it's still no where near how many CC specials you can find in other armies (Eldar, I'm looking at you)

Well this is an interesting thread.

Powerweapon-spam-wise, I'd agree with the sentiment that it doesn't really work for guard. Even though I use 'em in my regular infantry squads, fluffwise it feels wrong. Vet squad sergeants and officers it makes sense, but every sergeant seems mad.

Two possible explanations round that however could be either a: the one you used above, elite spire-top troops or b: they're not true power weapons, but other weapons with the same effect e.g. monomolecular weaponry.

As far as having 'special forces' assault teams, for the Guard I'd think in terms of modern special forces counter-insurgency units, e.g. iranian embassy seige SAS or generic Black Ops troops as appear in all computer games and action films these days. If you wanted these, with MP5-analogues, well vets with shotguns works just fine, and couple the 2 shots then the charge, you've got a lot of hits, albeit all at S3.

Other than that, I'd say you're best stuck with laspistol/ccw as a veteran option, and special weapons as normal with vets.

Also, don't forget Penal Squads! they're actually pretty good for HtH, and you can always customise their look to your tastes.

Captain Roderick wrote:Also, don't forget Penal Squads! they're actually pretty good for HtH, and you can always customise their look to your tastes.

I've got some old Necromunda figures that are great for IG. I've got 10 as a Penal legion, and 10 as a psyker battle squad. They really look the part.

Okay, so how about this then:

Swap WS and BS.

Take out the option to take heavy weapons.
Add in the option to take Laspistol and CC weapon cost free

for 10 points, upgrade whole squad to bolt pistols instead of laspistols.

Still up to 4 special weapons guys.

Add in PP as a 'special' weapon for 10 pts each. It fits the squad, and really adds to their ability without taking away too much from what would be 'appropriate'. Then again, PPs are powerful just like PWs are, but if you can take 4 plasma guns, why not be able to take 4 Plasma pistols instead? Thrones wise, it's cheaper

I just feel they need more than CCs and laspistols.

That, or instead of either PPs or PWs, maybe add in some sort of new doctrine that helps assaulting.

How about giving them some special rule reducing the resoult of the armour save dice by 1, or removes one armour point? Not quite as good as Power Weapons, but still makes them much better in CC.

Well, the thing I don't like about that is, it's a rule that isn't present, or anything close to it, anywhere else.

I'm thinking like a doctrine similar to the penal legions.

Something like they count as having rending CC attacks etc.

The only problem here is, why take penal legionaries if you could take a vet squad like this? Then again, this squad does end up costing more, for the reliability. I don't want them to have the same things, so we need something different.

Stubborn and rending CC attacks for 30 pts?

Add that with all pistols and CC weapons, and you've got a decent IG vet squad with WS 4 that can actually do some CC duty. They're still not as good as anyone elses assaulty guys, but they're better than what the guard can get, and they're different from legionaries to an extent.

I can definately see them with some sort of purchasable special rule as an upgrade. Something simmilar to how Nids can buy Ad. Sacs to give them the Furious Charge special.

Something simmilar (I'm thinking Stim Packs?) that would add to their stats but in a CC oriented sort of way. After all, if your going to make an assault centered unit why not make the upgrade to it assault focused?

I know I've read about Guard units that employ stim-troopers, soldiers that are hyped up on combat drugs that make them hyper effective.

In game, these could be represented as a veteran Guardsman with T4, 2 attacks base, plus a laspistol and a CCW with Rending. Perhaps you can have two of these guys instead of a Heavy Weapons team?

This goes back to 1st edtion. A penal squad would have auto-injectors and an officer with the squad would have the controller.

You could, at will, induce an of the psychological states - Frenzy, Hatred, Fear, Terror, etc.

In current rules I would suggest allowing them to be frenzied at the start of any turn and to allow you to pass or fail any morale test at will.

scott - I quite like that system, since it already exists with Inquisitor Lords, but at the same time it's pretty close to penal legionnaires with stubborn and psychopaths.

Maybe a good system would just be to take loads of penal troopers in your army, and switch round your models dependant on what rolls you get? stimm-nutters for Psychopaths, honor guard for Knife Fighters, etc.

Obviously we're looking at new unit types here, but that could be a legit way to play it.

What I'd really like to see from 1st ed is IG beastmen back again (with the same stats, of course!)

WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W2 I3 A1 Ld7 Sv5+
equipment: laspistol, CC weapon, Flak armour.

god knows what that would set you back points-wise, but having a 20+ mob of them with priest and lord commissar would be joy incarnate

Got 5 out of 9 imperial beastmen i have been converting for penal legions lead by a missonary just count him as the penal custodian all you need is lots of catachan arms and a box of the new gors get ready to file down and cut a lot of small chaotic details but once you get them together and take on some imperial gear they are really quite good looking