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Come the release of 8th edition, a group of my friends and I are starting a fantasy campaign. I am going to play ogres in it, and as such am really concerned with how they will play when it gets released. At the moment, my only viable builds for them are multiple small units and butchers. Since 8th is becoming a core based game and a limit is imposed on points (not just number of characters), that build seems to becoming obsolete. Fortunately between now and release I have the time to gather the forces I will need to supplement my army to some degree.

So my question is: Based on the rumors, with emphasis put on the "confirmed" ones, what is the probably the best build to go with for them?

P.S. please don't suggest Rhinox Riders (not enough money).

If the rumors that Ogre Bases are going to be getting +1 rank per 3 models seems to me like just about every unit in your army ought to either be 4 (1x4) or 6(2x3), 8(2x4) models. Depending on effeciency for points costs, etc etc. (2 ranks attack, and smaller rank facing for larger models)

You always want to refrain from a 3rd rank because the step up rule is a major nerf for them. (only 1 base str attack from any model "stepping up" reguarless of how armed)

Magic will give you far more dice on average, so you'll want at least 2 butchers. (roll 2d6 plus the pool of dice they create)

I honestly think the Ogres are going to really benefit from having TONS of basic level ogres from core and only one or two specials.

3x2 ogre unit of bulls is STILL nasty. I mean, thats 18 wounds, for around....like 230 points I think? Nasty.

a 3x2 block of bulls still flees from static five combat resolution, not even considering the enemy gets to retaliate with step up.

After which they are caught and all 18 wounds wiped off the board.

Fighting in two ranks, ogre bulls w/ AHW, get 4 attacks each @ S4, though this is at WS3.

24 attacks on the charge...including a standard and champ, thats 25 attacks.

I don't think SCR can beat that, even w/ two wounds put on the ogres.

Second rank with step-up is one attack / model.

Total of 15 attacks if 3-wide, including additional hand weapons. That's about 7.5 hits, and either 5 (T3) or 3.75 (T4) wounds pre-saves. Or, often, only about 2-4 wounds. Adding on the bull charge, you're still getting only 2-3 more wounds (provided the enemy isn't smart enough to negate it). Your static CR is 2. You have 4-6 (or 6-9 with bull charge). Oh, wait, your enemy is stubborn. Whatever you won by doesn't matter.

This is excluding the fact that you're striking second compared to the enemy, who - with the same stats (WS3, S4) and only one attack, one wound, and a 25mm model, is getting 14 attacks back, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, so one dead Ogre (so one less attack, in addition to the whole "Enemy has CR of 8-9 now). Meaning that barring your best rolling, you're probably only going to tie at best.

I2, WS3, and practically no armor is the Ogre's biggest issue.

Second rank attacks for ogre sized models are supose to be with full attacks.
Add in crush attack (additional attack that strikes last at base strength) and ogres will get a wopping 30 attacks at str 4 with aditional hand weapons or 18 at str6 and 6 at str 4.

They will be entertaining. Still have issues but entertaining. Add in the fact that the ogre miscast rule will now be MORE forgiving than the main rule book and you have some bonuses to hang around.

That is the exact internal conflict I have about them. Whether adding ranks will be effective with 8th edition, or just as costly, if not more so.

Also to consider, according to the rumor thread, magic casting is now different as such:
Casting Spells
[*]To cast a spell, roll 1 to 6 Power dice and add your caster's power level. EG: A Slann casts fireball and uses 2D6. He rolls a 3 and a 4 - score of 7. He than adds his Power Level of 4, which results in a total roll of 11.

So on a single die, assuming 1's and 2's are still failures for casting, spells will be going off on rolls of 5-8. Meaning gut magic forces double the dice to dispel it.

Taken, with the way power and dispel dice are supposed to be generated:
Generating Power and Dispel Dice
[*]Power dice aren’t generated by the number of spellcasters. The amount of dice is decided by 2D6. The active player gets the total as power dice and the other player the highest throw as dispel dice (throw 3+5, = 8 PD and 5 DD). (confirmed)


Channeling (confirmed that it exists)
[*]Each wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional power dice on a roll of 6.
[*]Each enemy wizard may roll a D6 and generate an additional dispel dice on a roll of 6.
[*]You may not channel while fleeing, off the board or when you suffer from stupidity..


Maximum Power and Dispel Dice
[*]The maximum number of power or dispel dice you may have at any time is 12. This includes any power/dispel dice generated by special rules, spells and/or magic items.

The opponent is more likely to let spells through, or burn through their reserve of dispel dice, at twice the rate.

Casting Spells
[*]To cast a spell, roll 1 to 6 Power dice and add your caster's power level. EG: A Slann casts fireball and uses 2D6. He rolls a 3 and a 4 - score of 7. He than adds his Power Level of 4, which results in a total roll of 11.

That seems like a HUUGGGEEE buff to level 4 wizards. You will almost always be able to get the 1 and a lot of time the #2 spell off on the list every turn with 1 power dice, considering most cast at a 5 or 6....

Unless a is always a failure....

Im talking in general here, not just on ogres.

This also makes it harder to miscast, assuming the rules stay the same for that. Instead of having to throw 3 dice at a spell with a casting level over 8 for it to go off a decent amount you will only need 2.

With three dice really only being needed for spells with a casting level of 11 or 12.

As for ogres, i honestly think they need a new codex to be really competitive.

ShivanAngel wrote:As for ogres, i honestly think they need a new codex to be really competitive.

Thought from me: Do ogres need to be "really competitive"? But I do agree with you, they need a new book, at the absolute least to drop the points on nearly everything and to give them access to any kind of flaming attak.

Re: Ogres in 8th, all I can say is that I've chosen to finish my ogres for Crossroads in September instead of my Warriors of Tzeentch. I'm confident that ogres can only get better, but then that isn't too hard

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:As for ogres, i honestly think they need a new codex to be really competitive.

Thought from me: Do ogres need to be "really competitive"? But I do agree with you, they need a new book, at the absolute least to drop the points on nearly everything and to give them access to any kind of flaming attak.

Re: Ogres in 8th, all I can say is that I've chosen to finish my ogres for Crossroads in September instead of my Warriors of Tzeentch. I'm confident that ogres can only get better, but then that isn't too hard

- Salvage

I am building an ogre list right now haha, but i would love to be able to bring them to more then just "for fun" games.

Currently my skaven are going to be my tournie army, just cant get back into my dark elves so im shelving them for a while.

Maybe after some more games and more practice i will be able to take ogres to tournies and do decent, but at my current skill level (only been playing competitively for 2 months) I dont see it happening, but i love the idea of the army.

If the rumour about larger based models needing less for ranks is true, this should help a lot against rank and file troops. It could mean taking a normal sized unit may actually work.

Dont forget fear either, which is said to add another +1 to CR.

So a decent unit of bulls with standard will go from having a SCR of 1, to a SCR of 3 or possibly 4.... Pretty nice little upgrade in my eyes.

That actualy covers most of the problems with ogres at the moment. Sure they ar still a bit over priced as they aren't great at cc but I think they will become a viable again.