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OK, so I won the Pre-lims at my location with a Chaos no-vehicle cult marine army based around Plague Marines and Terminators. However, after getting smoked VP-wise in Round 1 by a massively shooty Tau Crisis suit list, and only pulling off a win because I was able to secure the objectives with my (few) remaining troops, I'm pretty concerned about some of the firepower that I might face. That being said, I like lots of infantry models (even better when they're Fearless), so I figured I'd just take my Pre-lims list, drop most of the termies (die just as easily to plasma shots and MCs as the marines, but cost twice as much) and replace them with Rhinos and a Land Raider. Now I can hide my army off-table against a heavily shooty army and roar on to capture/contest the objectives (hopefully), or just deploy them on the table like mobile bunkers and shoot my plasmas and heavies out of the top hatches. I'd appreciate comments on this list (I'm already thinking about trading the Land Raider and termies for two chunky havoc squads):

Demon Prince w/ MoN, wings, Warptime = 175 pts

5x Terminator w/ champion, HF, PF, 2x combi-melta, 2x combi-plas in Land Raider w/ Demonic Possession = 435 pts

10x Plague Marines w/ champion, PW, PP, 2x plasma gun in Rhino = 340 pts

10x Plague Marines w/ champion, PF, 2x plasma gun in Rhino = 335 pts

10x Plague Marines w/ champion, PF, 2x plasma gun in Rhino = 335 pts

10x CSM w/ champion, PW, PP, autocannon, plasma gun, IoCG in Rhino w/ Havoc = 280 pts

10x CSM w/ champion, PW, PP, autocannon, plasma gun, IoCG in Rhino w/ Havoc = 280 pts

8x Noise Marines w/ champion, PW, Siren, Blastmaster, 5x blaster in Rhino w/ Havoc = 320 pts

That's over 60 T4, 3+ bodies (30 w/ T5, 3+ and FNP!) hidden in Rhinos for additional protection, and only 15 KPs to boot (I like to keep my armies as dense as possible). Also, any thoughts/experiences out there with dropping all the Rhinos, termies and Land Raider for more bodies? Thanks for the input.

I had the havoc squads, not worth it, they will die much faster then the termi's, only time the shown for me was during scenario 3, my opponet was Dark Eldar, and yes I got a lot of
VP for that round lol, but how often you going to get that?

Of course, the Havocs would also be in Rhinos, with only two heavy weapons per to take pot shots out the top hatch. Or I might run them on foot with big squads (10) and IoT for the I save for staying power. Was your army primarily foot or mech, and how did it fare?

Prince is ok, but at Ardboyz you'd expect both HQ slots taken.
Termies: Meh, not a great hammer unit.
Raider is IMO questionable...

Plague marines: Power weapon is gak. I suggest against the plasma pistol.
Plasma is nice on them, but the standard is meltas, then plasmas.

CSM: I think it's just not effective if you are going for the tactical squad look.

Noise marines: blast master is gak too.

Other than mass tough bodies, there's really no real hammer besides mass special weapons...which isn't bad.

I'm new to these forums--what do you mean by "gak?" Also, I realize there's a lot of favoritism for meltaguns out there, but I like the longer range/more short range firepower of the plasmas especially when married to a MEQ with FNP. The regular CSMs are in the list just to take a few longer range weapons, but I guess I could just load up on more Plague Marines with specials...

You have no proper anti-tank to speak of. You wont be firing the lascannon on your landraider if you need to use it to cart termies about. Without anything decent to hit transports in the first couple of turns most mech lists will just roll over you. 60 space marines is good, but at 2500pts therye not hard to kill. Any list running AV14 vehicles (which is quite a lot) will be next to unkillable for you. You will do ok nids purely because of the amount of small arms fire you have, but thats it. Honestly i dont think this list is very good. Bodies are nice but you need to be able to kill things too.

"gak" is the Dakka Filter blocking the stuff that comes out the rear end
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You go with what you like dude, just saying meltas do their job crazy well and the general meta is "Go mech or go home."

In addition, CSM are a close range and hence close combat force... adding an oppurtunity cost of being un able to charge or not using the weapon to charge hurts a bit.

If you play the stand and shoot, fine, but I don't think it's getting the most out of the CSM force.

I do know what I like (it generally works well in my group), but I'm really interested in seeing what you guys have to say about things; so bring on more comments!

I like my Demon Prince with MoN, because I like the model, and I'm morally opposed to Lash Princes (not that they aren't good, I just can't stand to see them everywhere!). Should I add a second Prince? I've found the regular lords and sorcerers to die too easily (T4 and only 5+ I) to really be worth it in the long run.

Good point about the AV14 issue; my previous list had a couple of other ways to deal with heavy tanks, but they're just not that common where I play (lots of Orks, 'Nids, Rhino MEQ, and Tau), and they accidentally dropped out when I rearranged everything for this list. So I'll have to put some heavy armor busting back in.

I get what you're saying about the heavy weapons in the CSM squads. They were kind of in there for opportunity shots early in the game to try and level the playing field somewhat, plus they're cheaper there than in Havoc squads. My usual tactics with Chaos involve a slow advance with withering bolter/plasma fire (everything dies when you make it take enough saves), followed by an assault (and I usually prefer objective games). I may have to modify my playing style somewhat here...

I had Oblits and lots of Termies loaded with assault weapons in the Pre-lims list, what about putting them back in?

2+ raiders or none at all

OK, taking all the comments into consideration (thanks, guys), here's draft two:

Chaos Lord w/ demon weapon, combi-melta = 140

Chaos Sorcerer w/ MoTz, Bolt of Change = 155

4x Terminators w/ HF, PF, 3xcombi-melta = 150

4x Terminators w/ HF, PF, 3xcombi-plasma = 150

8x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PP, PW, 2x melta, icon in Rhino w/ extra bolter = 294

8x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PF, 2x melta, icon in Rhino w/ extra bolter = 289

8x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PF, 2x melta, icon in Rhino = 284

7x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PW, 2x plasma in Rhino w/ Havoc = 271

7x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PW, 2x plasma in Rhino w/ Havoc = 271

7x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PW, 2x plasma in Rhino w/ Havoc = 271

3x Obliterators = 225

2,500 points on the nose. I dropped the Demon Prince because it always seems to draw lots of fire and can never really hide anyways. I figure I can hide the two characters in the squads for survivability, and only pick on things that I have a decent chance of beating without getting instant killed or the like. Someone had mentioned that I don't really have a "wham" unit, but I do bring 10 meltas (+BoC) and 9 plasmas which should be enough to slag just about anything. As for all the PWs (not great on I3 I know), I only have a few PFs for my Plague Marines and I'm not going to rebuild my army just for 'Ard Boyz...

Thoughts?

I had the havocs on foot, in a rhino would work, but it would be pricy, why not just take too predators with sponsons, does the same thing better and cheaper

Yeah, but a weapon destroyed result on the Rhino will kill a combi-bolter and leave the heavy weapons free to fire out. At any rate, I decided to drop the havocs and go all Plague Marines anyways...

Prince is suppose to draw fire, that is his job, have him follow a rhino, giving him a 4 up save draws the attention from the rhino, then ur odds of having both make it go up, if you do replace I suggest a khone lord with daemon weapon, wass awesome for me, even against a 50 man guard unit, he alone was killing about 8 of them a turn, that or kharn, he is a strength 8 pw that hits on 2s, I will gladly loose one guy a turn for that



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And I would suggest lash over bolt of change, its funner to pull guys to you and watch ur opponent go what the #$%^


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When ur lord is now within assult range because of it


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When ur lord is now within assult range because of it

Do you have any defilers or vindicators? Those would be a good choice to switch out for something.

@The Latest List:

Lord: is ok...kinda...bland though, but decent I guess.
Sorc: Bolt of Change is poo.

Wanna-be termicides: a little fat.

Plague Marines: again, Power weapons is points you could have spent on a gun to shoot your left foot and then right thigh, IMO.
Else, the PM spam look to it is ok...but a Death-Star-y type of opponent 'can' roll though mass PM's who have no real hammer unit.

Oblits are ok,but a bit lonely in the Hvy support section.

Would it be worth trading out the Termies for a Defiler and Vindicator (I only have one of each) like Vasarto said?


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I'm also thinking of running Kharn instead of the vanilla Lord for a little extra oomph, although completely cheesy with the rest of my Death Guard theme, I know, but hey, it IS 'Ard Boyz afterall...


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I essentially trimmed some fat and dropped one Plague Marine squad to add a Vindi and Defiler. I'm really starting to like the way this looks!

Terminators I find unsatifying. If they deepstrike you can't guarantee where and when they'll land and given such a short range on their guns... its makes them a situational unit at best. Unless you go overboard, its hard to misplace 10 deepstriking terminators, and if you do that, you'll runa few icons to make sure they land where you want them.

I debated heavily between 5 man chosen squads in rhino's vs 5 terminators, and despite mission 3's serious kp penalty for transports, i went with the chosen and wasn't anymore disappointed with them in the 3rd mission that I was with terminators in general, however the first 2 missions they were golden as always.

Thats my thoughts on terminators. I think 10 might be good, but you have to build around it. Or 3 if you can afford to suicide them. 4's and 5's tend to be too fat to be expendable, and too thin to dish it out.

What might be a good use in your list #1, replace the terminators in the landraider with a full squad of beserkers, its more killy, its faster initiative, just don't let yourself get shot to bits afterwards :p Maybe run 9, so you can squeeze a sorcerer with warptime in there, or Karn. Unless you want to use the DP to draw fire.

I don't think you need your entire list to be mechanized. I sucessfully ran 2 stationary CSM squads, lascannon/plasma gun and nothing else not icons or champs. Its worth testing out. The rest of your army can rush up.

Swap out something for at least one squad of oblits, preferably two. Nothing says love to transports better than a lot of Lascannon fire :-)

I'm using the termies to DS on the advancing Icons; the massed plasma/melta spam of a Plague Marine and termie squad is enough to take out just about anything, and they really help out the anemic Plague Marines in HtH the following turn (assuming they survive that long). I'm not a huge fan of them either, but I don't really like the point sink and vulnerability of the Chosen (5 + 2xMelta + Rhino = 145 or the same points as my termies, who bring more guns and CC weapons) and if the termies survive the return firepower (easy if the supporting PMs move in to tie up the potential threat), their PWs will wreck MEQs in HtH.

I had the Berserkers in my Pre-lims list, and they didn't do too much (certainly not worth their points). In game one, they massacred a small squad of Kroot in one round, leaving them vulnerable to the return fire (thankfully heavily negated by cover saves); all they ended up doing was holding an objective, which the Plague Marines do much better. In game two they participated in a massive overkill assault again with a Demon Prince against a DSing Trygon, and then just contested a table quarter. In game three, the depleted squad fought an inconsequential combat against some termies. They throw lots of attacks, but against MEQ they can't break the armor any more than the Plague Marines, and they don't have the firepower option instead. If they survive to get up close, they're overkill (compared to PM or CSM) against Guard, Tau or "small" 'Nids (and I suspect most people will be running MC hordes based around Tervigons anyway). I find they're only really useful against Orks, and I don't see that being a large threat in this environment, and at any rate it's one I'd rather handle through massed bolter, flamer and Havoc missile fire rather than HtH.

Arrggg, so many good suggestions, so many options, so few points...

Have you considered Typhus? He's a little bit spendy, but can be hidden in a squad and would wreck anything in CC. Force weapon that always wounds on a 4+ and can be used even after he used Wind of Chaos? Yes please...

I have considered him and agree that he's quite killy, especially against MEQ and MCs, but:

1. I don't have the model
2. Incredibly spendy (I can pretty much take a Greater Demon in addition to my two current HQs for his price)
3. Terminator armor means I have to DS him (risky for 225 pts, plus that's a lot to waste sitting in reserve if I roll poorly) or walk him up (no riding in a Rhino and I axed the LR as it was a fire magnet)

But adding a GD seems like it might be a good idea, and I just happen to have a nicely painted GUO sitting around...

No please..., he's fist bait and not worth nearly a LR.
Cheap-o HQ's and more points in troops IMO.


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Greater Daemons need delivery...and are so so after the initial drop...disappointing IMO.

Well I dropped all those overcosted/underpowered PWs and PPs from the Plague Champions, and that plus some more fat trimming gave me enough points to run the GD. I like the fact that he has almost as much punch as the DP, but for significantly less points and a way to keep him safe right up to the fight. I disagree with using DPs as a fire distraction because they're way too expensive to get gunned down before making it into HtH as usually happens to mine, especially because he's pretty obviously a high value target. Now I have the following list (pretty final until I see the scenario list I think):

Karn = 165

Lord w/ demon weapon, combi-melta = 140 (I like the generic Lord because his DW gets +1S which is critical IMO)

GD = 100

4x Termies w/ HF, PF, 3x combi-melta = 150

4x Termies w/ HF, PF, 3x combi-plasma = 150

7x Plague Marines w/ Champ, PF, 2x plasma in Rhino w/ Havoc Launcher = 281

7x PM as above = 281

8x PM w/ Champ, melta, flamer, Icon in Rhino = 231

7x PM as above = 231

7x PM as above = 254

3x Obliterators = 225

Vindi w/ combi-flamer = 130

Defiler w/ Havoc Launcher = 155

About the last thought that I have is possibly dropping one more PM squad to bulk up the other four and save the 2 KPs (it would also further concentrate my meltas, of which I only have 3). Is four scoring units enough if they are T5, 3+, FNP and in Rhinos?

BigRedOne82 wrote:
8x PM w/ Champ, melta, flamer, Icon in Rhino = 231

7x PM as above = 231

7x PM as above = 254

About the last thought that I have is possibly dropping one more PM squad to bulk up the other four and save the 2 KPs (it would also further concentrate my meltas, of which I only have 3). Is four scoring units enough if they are T5, 3+, FNP and in Rhinos?

Just to highlight those entries, I think your points are wrong. First of all, the first squad has 8 guys, yet is 231 points. Two 7-man squads, then, are apparently 231 and 254. And in either case, they aren't same as above since they're differently sized. Did you mean same equipment, but only 7 men? In that case, should the points be switched to be 254, then 231 and 231?

Problem with the GD is that it can be insta-killed by boneswords and force weapons. DPs can't. But they're solid for 100 points, so that's not that big a deal. Also, does the melta/flamer really work for you? I find it's best just to go all melta or all flamer. So much nowadays that's "vulnerable" to flamers either gets around it [feel no pain for nids] or doesn't matter [yay you toasted 1 guard squad out of 25]. I find my obliterators cover all my flamer needs, especially if my squads are running anti-tank. Also, to make sure you down a tank you really need all your squads nearby to make sure you have extra chances - but with doubling up on meltaguns, you might just need 2, or can gamble with 1.

What's the champion doing for the other squads, by the way? It doesn't look like he's taking a powerfist, so why is he there? Did you just want LD 10 for your fearless squad, in fear of Doom of Malan'tai? I think you should drop those 3 champions, and go 2x 2x melta squads and 1x 2x flamers, or all melta. Any points spare can be used to maybe buy combi-weapons for your rhinos, either combi-melta or combi-plasma. I've had great fun lately alpha-striking trygons and such with my rhino combi-weapons the turn they arrive, or if they get too close. It's a real solid investment.

The S5 daemon weapon on the lord is really nice. Consider the mark of Nurgle, though. Against anything T5 you're still wounding on a 4+, and if they're T6....still wounding on a 4! And for anything T4 or less, you get a re-roll to wound, so it's like having a lightning claw daemon weapon. The only time S5 is better really is against T3 and lower, and the difference between 4+ with a reroll and 2+ is rather small.

What sort of meta do you play in, by the way? Lots of tyranid players, or Orks that run warbosses? A Slaanesh daemon weapon, while not as good at grinding through troops, can be nice at times when you get that 6 to wound. It's a bit of a gamble, but if you have a lot of tyranids out there it's nice to have. Plus he's I6 with frag grenades. Heck he can even kill Mephiston if you get a little lucky. Just hope he doesn't kill you first!

Your army is going to get shot to pieces bro, not trying to be mean at all, but if I saw this army across the table form me I would be stoked.

My Ard Boyz lists has 21 missile launchers, 5 las cannons, mult meltas and meltas coming out the rear end. All of that blows right through Rhinos and the PM's inside like they were guardsmen.

To be competitive with the CSM codex (which doe snot scale up to 2,500 points very well) you need to max out the good stuff if you want to have any hope of going through the truly nasty lists you will most likely be seeing at Semis.

Chaos has their best anti tank in Elites and HS.

My suggestion:

9 oblits or max havos with missile launchers

3 x termicide squads

That gives you a decent base of anti tank units.

Now, build in troops. I would go with no larger than 7 man squads, which is a good size for PM's. Give them all melta, or all flamer and a combi weapon of the same type. I would even consider skipping the fist as you really don't want these guys in combat against anything that is good at combat where you would need the fist. Also, try combi meltas on the Rhinos, a friend of mine does that and they are really, really useful. They force you to deal with Rhinos you may otherwise ignore.

Lord on foot with a Daemon Weapon is just not very good. Lord on a bike with daemon weapon though, I have seen put to great use.

For good, cheap assault units, look to Chaos Dreads with 2 x DCCW and a HF. They are dirt cheap and while yes they can go nuts, with a HF and bolter who cares? Once they get into combat they serve their purpose.

You really need to focus on being able to open cans if you want to take on what is to come. Chaos has a rough go of it as this points level, so you really need to squeeze the cheese if you want to make it to finals.

Good luck.

@ Spellbound--good catch with those point values. The 8 man squad is 254, and the other two 7-man squads are 231; I just copied it wrong. They are all equipped the same; the only difference is one more model. The unarmed champions are there to spawn the GD; just redundancy to make sure one gets in there.

@Reecius--how do you get all that into one list? 21 missile launchers would take three havoc squads, six 10-man CSM squads, and three Chosen squads as near as I can tell (as well as over 1,700 points). That doesn't leave slots for termicides or oblits or dreadnaughts or anything else really (how do you bring the 5 lascannons?). And I have a couple of dreads hanging around, but they don't see play very often these days as I find the AV12 gets cracked way too easily and they tend to go nuts the wrong way at the wrong time.

Otherwise, I like the Lord with MoN and Plaguebringer idea; good points all around and I think I'll use it. And unfortunately, I only have the three meltaguns, so I can't do anything else there. I'm really not the type of guy who builds a new army for each tournament--I've got about 6K worth of Chaos models in two armies (which unfortunately means lots of basic PM and Iron Warrior squads, and just a bit of the rest of the good stuff) and I'm just looking to build the most competitive army out of what I've got. I don't really expect to win, and I'm confident that I won't get tabled either. All these suggestions have really helped me tune it up quite a bit I think, and I appreciate all the help I've gotten.