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The guidebook loosely defines "Intervening Models" as "Partially hidden from fierier's view by other models" and I wanted to see how people play this vague term. I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but I want to see how people actually play it around the community.

The extreme situation I have in mind is:

Ork Boyz shooting at Chaos Demon Bloodcrushers of Korne from max range with a squad of Gretchin in between those two squads... Would the Bloodcrushers get 4+ cover save from the Boyz' shots because of the Gretchin are technically intervening? But there are other situations such as Gaunts in front of Warriors for Nids, Scouts in front of Terminators for SM etc.

How do you play intervening models?

Vehicles are not relevant to this discussion.

visavismeyou wrote:The guidebook loosely defines "Intervening Models" as "Partially hidden from fierier's view by other models" and I wanted to see how people play this vague term. I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but I want to see how people actually play it around the community.

The extreme situation I have in mind is:

Ork Boyz shooting at Chaos Demon Bloodcrushers of Korne from max range with a squad of Gretchin in between those two squads... Would the Bloodcrushers get 4+ cover save from the Boyz' shots because of the Gretchin are technically intervening? But there are other situations such as Gaunts in front of Warriors for Nids, Scouts in front of Terminators for SM etc.

How do you play intervening models?

Vehicles are not relevant to this discussion.

I play it that intervening means exactly that. If you shoot though another unit, the target gets a cover save.

Gwar! wrote:I play it that intervening means exactly that. If you shoot though another unit, the target gets a cover save.

Irrespective of the relative sizes? Gretchin are freakin tiny and Bloodcrushers are huge.

visavismeyou wrote:

Gwar! wrote:I play it that intervening means exactly that. If you shoot though another unit, the target gets a cover save.

Irrespective of the relative sizes? Gretchin are freakin tiny and Bloodcrushers are huge.

Yes. The rules on page 22 very clearly state that even if the target unit is completely viable, they get a cover save if you shoot through a unit.

If the gretchin obscure the bloodcrushers to any extent then they get the 4+. If they don't obscure at all then you get nothing.

Scott-S6 wrote:If the gretchin obscure the bloodcrushers to any extent then they get the 4+. If they don't obscure at all then you get nothing.

But page 22 makes it clear they don't have to be obscured. It's specifically listed as an exception!

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If the gretchin obscure the bloodcrushers to any extent then they get the 4+. If they don't obscure at all then you get nothing.

But page 22 makes it clear they don't have to be obscured. It's specifically listed as an exception!

yea i know, but it is just so dramatic sometimes. A full squad of Bloodcrushers standing behind the last remaining gretchin of a gretchin unit, and the crushers still get a 4+ cover save? Well, I posted this not to argue about it but to find how the community plays, so, please continue to vote everyone! I'm curious how you have played it!

visavismeyou wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If the gretchin obscure the bloodcrushers to any extent then they get the 4+. If they don't obscure at all then you get nothing.

But page 22 makes it clear they don't have to be obscured. It's specifically listed as an exception!

yea i know, but it is just so dramatic sometimes. A full squad of Bloodcrushers standing behind the last remaining gretchin of a gretchin unit, and the crushers still get a 4+ cover save? Well, I posted this not to argue about it but to find how the community plays, so, please continue to vote everyone! I'm curious how you have played it!

Actually, if it was only 1 Grot, they WOULDN'T get a cover save, as you cannot shoot between the gaps of 1 model!

Don't Crushers have a Invulnerable save anyway?

Gwar! wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:If the gretchin obscure the bloodcrushers to any extent then they get the 4+. If they don't obscure at all then you get nothing.

But page 22 makes it clear they don't have to be obscured. It's specifically listed as an exception!

yea i know, but it is just so dramatic sometimes. A full squad of Bloodcrushers standing behind the last remaining gretchin of a gretchin unit, and the crushers still get a 4+ cover save? Well, I posted this not to argue about it but to find how the community plays, so, please continue to vote everyone! I'm curious how you have played it!

Actually, if it was only 1 Grot, they WOULDN'T get a cover save, as you cannot shoot between the gaps of 1 model!

Don't Crushers have a Invulnerable save anyway?

I think the size difference between 2 gretchin and 1 is insubstantial to make a difference in the argument, not to mention, its still "Intervening", the point you brought up (the third bullet point on p22) is simply an explicit mentioning of firing through units and terrain; I'm still referring to the "Intervening models" claim as the relevant point with your extraordinary point as simply more minutia for the discussion. A single gretchin is still a model in between the firers and the target right? Thus it is still intervening, thus it would still confer a 4+ cover save on the Bloodcrushers if you chose the first of my 4 poll choices.

and I dont care about the saves of bloodcrushers, only the fact of how people play cover saves and intervening models.

I play it that cover save is given. The cover save represents a chance of the shots hitting the intervening unit, or aim being put off by the Gretchin mooning you. However you choose to interpret it.

visavismeyou wrote:I think the size difference between 2 gretchin and 1 is insubstantial to make a difference in the argument, not to mention, its still "Intervening",

The difference is that with a single Gretchin, it would have to be physically obscuring the target. With 2 Gretchin, the target gets a cover save if either Gretchin is obscuring the target or if the shot passes between them.


If the target is partially obscured, or if the shot passes through a unit, the target gets a cover save.



Note that the rulebook does make a distinction between 'through' and 'over'... so your depending on how close the units all are to each other, there's every chance that the gretchin in your example won't actually be in the way anyway.


I didn't vote, as I'm not sure what you mean by the last option, which seems to be contradictory.

insaniak wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:I think the size difference between 2 gretchin and 1 is insubstantial to make a difference in the argument, not to mention, its still "Intervening",

The difference is that with a single Gretchin, it would have to be physically obscuring the target. With 2 Gretchin, the target gets a cover save if either Gretchin is obscuring the target or if the shot passes between them.


If the target is partially obscured, or if the shot passes through a unit, the target gets a cover save.



Note that the rulebook does make a distinction between 'through' and 'over'... so your depending on how close the units all are to each other, there's every chance that the gretchin in your example won't actually be in the way anyway.

See, I didn't clarify that on purpose, I think there is no difference (from the BRB's perspective) of the gretchin being 2 inches away from the Crushers or being right in front of the boyz, its all "Intervening", furthermore, a single model is still intervening, the bullet point on p22 brings up the difference between shooting through another unit or terrain for other situations, a single gretchin is still intervening; furthermore if there is a difference between shooting over or through, then gretchin can never give a cover save to the crushers as I will explain in a moment:

insaniak wrote:I didn't vote, as I'm not sure what you mean by the last option, which seems to be contradictory.

Glad you brought this up! The last option is all about how I would like to play this game of "True LOS" which states that you do not trace from a models base to another models base, instead, you trace from the eye of the model to the body of the target. If you trace from the eye of the firer to the base of the target, then 2 gretchin can give cover save to crushers as the shot would go along the ground to the base of the crusher, however, the shooters are not shooting at the base of the target, they are shooting at the body and as such the boyz would shoot over the gretchin and the third bullet point on p22 would make it so that gretchin would never give a cover save to the crushers. This is then "True LOS" the line from the weapon barrel or the eye to the true target of the bullet, the body of the target, which, if it went over the gretchin, then there would be no save.

visavismeyou wrote:See, I didn't clarify that on purpose, I think there is no difference (from the BRB's perspective) of the gretchin being 2 inches away from the Crushers or being right in front of the boyz, its all "Intervening", furthermore, a single model is still intervening, the bullet point on p22 brings up the difference between shooting through another unit or terrain for other situations, a single gretchin is still intervening; furthermore if there is a difference between shooting over or through, then gretchin can never give a cover save to the crushers as I will explain in a moment:

The thing is, the gretchin is only intervening if it is actually in the way. That means it has to be at least partially obscuring the target.

The shot is going over the gretchin if the gretchin is in between firer and target but is not at least partially blocking the target. In that situation, the gretchin is in between the two, but is not intervening.

insaniak wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:See, I didn't clarify that on purpose, I think there is no difference (from the BRB's perspective) of the gretchin being 2 inches away from the Crushers or being right in front of the boyz, its all "Intervening", furthermore, a single model is still intervening, the bullet point on p22 brings up the difference between shooting through another unit or terrain for other situations, a single gretchin is still intervening; furthermore if there is a difference between shooting over or through, then gretchin can never give a cover save to the crushers as I will explain in a moment:

The thing is, the gretchin is only intervening if it is actually in the way. That means it has to be at least partially obscuring the target.

The shot is going over the gretchin if the gretchin is in between firer and target but is not at least partially blocking the target. In that situation, the gretchin is in between the two, but is not intervening.

And this is my point, I think the 4th choice is the only valid choice for 1 or a squad of gretchin in between boyz and crushers, I think there cannot be any line of sight drawn between the boyz and the crushers which the gretchin will ever get in the way of irrespective of how many gretchin there are. it appears that everyone disagrees.

The question is would you pass on the cover save for your boyz. You can't have it both ways.

Also, your argument ignores the geometry of TLoS. The gretchin right in front of your boyz are out of the way but as they approach the enemy they will walk into the firing zone. The rules cover how to determine this by whether from the models eye veiw your opponents bases are obscured by intervening models.

focusedfire wrote:The question is would you pass on the cover save for your boyz. You can't have it both ways.

Well the fact of the matter is that I dont even own an ork codex, I'm bringing this up for the sake of understanding how the community plays, and the answer is Yes, I will play it the way that I play it irrespective of who is the target who is the firer, I'm not a hypocrite.

focusedfire wrote:Also, your argument ignores the geometry of TLoS. The gretchin right in front of your boyz are out of the way but as they approach the enemy they will walk into the firing zone. The rules cover how to determine this by whether from the models eye veiw your opponents bases are obscured by intervening models.

I intentionally ignored TLOS because I think the rules and the way that most people play ignores TLOS, thus I brought this up to attempt to discover how people actually play it, I did not bring this up to explain to people how I play it.

visavismeyou wrote: I think there cannot be any line of sight drawn between the boyz and the crushers which the gretchin will ever get in the way of irrespective of how many gretchin there are.

How do you figure that?

If the Gretchin are in between the Orks and the Bloodcrushers, they may or may not partially obscure either unit from each other, depending on how far apart the three all are from each other.

That's exactly why TLOS from the firer's eyes works... A model that is close enough to see over an obstacle can see over it freely, while still claiming protection from it.

I play it as RaW, is there a unit (2 models +) between me and the enemy unit I am firing at? Yes? Then they get a cover save.

voted option 1

I'd say the public has spoken and you'r arguing is pointless

syanticraven wrote:I play it as RaW, is there a unit (2 models +) between me and the enemy unit I am firing at? Yes? Then they get a cover save.

Even if the firing unit is close to the intervening unit, or on a slight hill so that (in either case) their LOS is from such a position that no part of the intervening unit obscures any part of the target?

HoverBoy wrote:I'd say the public has spoken and you'r arguing is pointless

who is arguing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

visavismeyou wrote: I think there cannot be any line of sight drawn between the boyz and the crushers which the gretchin will ever get in the way of irrespective of how many gretchin there are.

How do you figure that?

If the Gretchin are in between the Orks and the Bloodcrushers, they may or may not partially obscure either unit from each other, depending on how far apart the three all are from each other.

That's exactly why TLOS from the firer's eyes works... A model that is close enough to see over an obstacle can see over it freely, while still claiming protection from it.

So you agree that there is some orientation of the Gretchin, Boyz and Bloodcrushers in which the crushers do not get a cover save? That is, with 1 or several of the Gretchin placed somewhere between the two so that you can draw a line between the eyes of the boyz to the crushers so that the gretchin do not interfere?

Build a wall with height equal to the height of the Gretchin models, and place that wall between the Gretchin models.

If the line of sight from the firing models are in any way obstructed by that new wall, then you have a cover save since the unit is firing between the gretchin. If the wall doesn't obstruct the line of sight, then the unit is firing over the gretchin.

That's my understanding of the situation, anyway.

zeshin wrote:

syanticraven wrote:I play it as RaW, is there a unit (2 models +) between me and the enemy unit I am firing at? Yes? Then they get a cover save.

Even if the firing unit is close to the intervening unit, or on a slight hill so that (in either case) their LOS is from such a position that no part of the intervening unit obscures any part of the target?

No I assumed flat land.

Terrain have there own rules.

solkan wrote:Build a wall with height equal to the height of the Gretchin models, and place that wall between the Gretchin models.

If the line of sight from the firing models are in any way obstructed by that new wall, then you have a cover save since the unit is firing between the gretchin. If the wall doesn't obstruct the line of sight, then the unit is firing over the gretchin.

That's my understanding of the situation, anyway.

This is how I understood it too, but so many people disagree, thats why I worded my first choice so extremely I didn't think people ACTUALLY played that way.

syanticraven wrote:

zeshin wrote:

syanticraven wrote:I play it as RaW, is there a unit (2 models +) between me and the enemy unit I am firing at? Yes? Then they get a cover save.

Even if the firing unit is close to the intervening unit, or on a slight hill so that (in either case) their LOS is from such a position that no part of the intervening unit obscures any part of the target?

No I assumed flat land.

Terrain have there own rules.

Fine, I will remove half of my question and expand on the other half. Lets say (for arguments sake) that you have a unit of terminators directly in front of a unit of grots (or similarly sized small creatures) and is firing at a distant unit 20+" on the other side of the small unit. Since their LOS is clearly unobstructed by the smaller unit and no part of the target unit is in any way blocked would the target unit get a cover save?

zeshin wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

zeshin wrote:

syanticraven wrote:I play it as RaW, is there a unit (2 models +) between me and the enemy unit I am firing at? Yes? Then they get a cover save.

Even if the firing unit is close to the intervening unit, or on a slight hill so that (in either case) their LOS is from such a position that no part of the intervening unit obscures any part of the target?

No I assumed flat land.

Terrain have there own rules.

Fine, I will remove half of my question and expand on the other half. Lets say (for arguments sake) that you have a unit of terminators directly in front of a unit of grots (or similarly sized small creatures) and is firing at a distant unit 20+" on the other side of the small unit. Since their LOS is clearly unobstructed by the smaller unit and no part of the target unit is in any way blocked would the target unit get a cover save?

what you just described is the 4th choice in the poll.

visavismeyou wrote:So you agree that there is some orientation of the Gretchin, Boyz and Bloodcrushers in which the crushers do not get a cover save?

Yes, of course there is. If LOS to the target is unobstructed, there is no cover save.

insaniak wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:So you agree that there is some orientation of the Gretchin, Boyz and Bloodcrushers in which the crushers do not get a cover save?

Yes, of course there is. If LOS to the target is unobstructed, there is no cover save.

trying to get gwar to agree to that, also, 90%+ disagree

visavismeyou wrote:90%+ disagree

90% of whom disagree with what?

If your're claiming that 90% of people think it works differently to how I've explained based on your poll, I would think it far more likely that people have just misunderstood your poll options, to be honest.