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I see i am horrifically outnumbered in my literal LoS opinion, but here we go....

Infantry models shooting through other infantry mods is obstructed and your foes get the cover save.

Walkers and Vehicles, range is measured from the weapon, so "I" measure LoS from the gun as well. If the path of the weapon is obstructed then i give a cover save.

hope that makes sense to somebody other than myself.

visavismeyou wrote:The guidebook loosely defines "Intervening Models" as "Partially hidden from fierier's view by other models" and I wanted to see how people play this vague term. I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but I want to see how people actually play it around the community.

The extreme situation I have in mind is:

Ork Boyz shooting at Chaos Demon Bloodcrushers of Korne from max range with a squad of Gretchin in between those two squads... Would the Bloodcrushers get 4+ cover save from the Boyz' shots because of the Gretchin are technically intervening? But there are other situations such as Gaunts in front of Warriors for Nids, Scouts in front of Terminators for SM etc.

How do you play intervening models?

Vehicles are not relevant to this discussion.

To the OP, you may find this thread helpful:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219003.page


I couldn't really vote in this poll as with your example you don't describe whether the firing models' line of sight is drawn through or over the intervening gretchin, which is all that matters. And I don't think you can really take the results of your poll too seriously without the explicit situation laid out before the voters, IMHO.

insaniak wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:90%+ disagree

90% of whom disagree with what?

If your're claiming that 90% of people think it works differently to how I've explained based on your poll, I would think it far more likely that people have just misunderstood your poll options, to be honest.

entirely possible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yakface wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:The guidebook loosely defines "Intervening Models" as "Partially hidden from fierier's view by other models" and I wanted to see how people play this vague term. I know that this topic has been hashed out before, but I want to see how people actually play it around the community.

The extreme situation I have in mind is:

Ork Boyz shooting at Chaos Demon Bloodcrushers of Korne from max range with a squad of Gretchin in between those two squads... Would the Bloodcrushers get 4+ cover save from the Boyz' shots because of the Gretchin are technically intervening? But there are other situations such as Gaunts in front of Warriors for Nids, Scouts in front of Terminators for SM etc.

How do you play intervening models?

Vehicles are not relevant to this discussion.

To the OP, you may find this thread helpful:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/219003.page


I couldn't really vote in this poll as with your example you don't describe whether the firing models' line of sight is drawn through or over the intervening gretchin, which is all that matters. And I don't think you can really take the results of your poll too seriously without the explicit situation laid out before the voters, IMHO.

That was intentional, thats why I made the question so extreme "Any model" etc. Furthermore, people apparently play with an extreme version of intervening models rule. I see it all the time and I run into problems with it, I play so that a smaller model wont give cover in normal circumstances, however, others constantly disagree.

visavismeyou wrote:

That was intentional, thats why I made the question so extreme "Any model" etc. Furthermore, people apparently play with an extreme version of intervening models rule. I see it all the time and I run into problems with it, I play so that a smaller model wont give cover in normal circumstances, however, others constantly disagree.

But you're missing in your example (and in your options) whether or not the boys' line of sight to the Bloodcrushers passes over or through the Gretchin.

So there is no poll option for me to choose because I play that in some cases the Gretchin will provide a cover save (if the Boys' line of sight passes through the grot unit) and in other cases they won't (if the LOS passes over the grot unit).

I agree that there are many people who tend to want to play this situation more like a 2D scenario, but without the opposite option in the poll I don't see how you can hope to get any kind of answer on how people are actually playing.

yakface wrote:

visavismeyou wrote:

That was intentional, thats why I made the question so extreme "Any model" etc. Furthermore, people apparently play with an extreme version of intervening models rule. I see it all the time and I run into problems with it, I play so that a smaller model wont give cover in normal circumstances, however, others constantly disagree.

But you're missing in your example (and in your options) whether or not the boys' line of sight to the Bloodcrushers passes over or through the Gretchin.

So there is no poll option for me to choose because I play that in some cases the Gretchin will provide a cover save (if the Boys' line of sight passes through the grot unit) and in other cases they won't (if the LOS passes over the grot unit).

I agree that there are many people who tend to want to play this situation more like a 2D scenario, but without the opposite option in the poll I don't see how you can hope to get any kind of answer on how people are actually playing.

your missing my point... i did what you just described on purpose

To what end?

visavismeyou wrote:

your missing my point... i did what you just described on purpose

I'm trying to get your point, but you seem to be saying that you created an intentionally misleading poll, but I don't understand what the purpose of that is? You're not going to find out how many people actually play that units that can be seen OVER still provide a cover save because your initial question doesn't ask that.

Your initial question is:

Can any size model confer a cover save to any other size model?

And my answer is YES, but only in some situations.

But you don't have that option, the closest you have for me is:

No - Boyz can see and shoot over Gretchin, True LOS is paramount

But I don't know if that is true or not because you have not provided enough information in your example.


So the problem is that your initial question has a yes or no answer, but your 'yes' and 'no' answers don't match up with your question!

And thats the thing yak, people play this all wrong, the rulebook contradicts itself by saying that true LOS is paramount, then sets up a situation and a confusing word choice to say that "IF you're shooting between models then they grant a cover save", this appears (and people such as Gwar have explicated) it to be even if the intervening models are tiny in comparison to the shooters and target. This is where I come to my description of a "geodesic LoS" or a true straightline LoS. But ya, Yak, I'm trying to show these questions are how people see the rule, and are how people play it, please pay attention to the context and ask yourself, why are you the first one to bring up this rejection of my poll?

So you're trying to show that people play this situation wrong by not even providing the correct answer on the poll?

visavismeyou wrote:And thats the thing yak, people play this all wrong, the rulebook contradicts itself by saying that true LOS is paramount, then sets up a situation and a confusing word choice to say that "IF you're shooting between models then they grant a cover save", this appears (and people such as Gwar have explicated) it to be even if the intervening models are tiny in comparison to the shooters and target. This is where I come to my description of a "geodesic LoS" or a true straightline LoS. But ya, Yak, I'm trying to show these questions are how people see the rule, and are how people play it, please pay attention to the context and ask yourself, why are you the first one to bring up this rejection of my poll?

the way i see it is that shooting through (not over) a unit works the same as shooting between 2 elements of Area terrain - also long as the shot is fired between 2 models of the same unit at a height in which there is potential of a member of their unit getting in the way then a cover save applies

visavismeyou wrote:please pay attention to the context and ask yourself, why are you the first one to bring up this rejection of my poll?

He wasn't.


However, even assuming he was, that can be very easily put down to the fact that the 'answers' in your poll aren't very clear. People most likely voted for the one that sounded the most correct, without realising that you intended that answer to mean something completely different to what they thought it meant.

Which gives you a poll result that has nothing whatsoever to do with how anyone actually plays.

everyone is still missing the point - the rulebook is what is failing us - my poll is pointing this out - people play this all wrong and think its correct - I am curious how that is, how people play it...

the only thing i am against is the horse shoe formations i have see people play and get the save (they are definately TFG people)

the try to claim this:

DDDDDDDD

X-----------X
X0000000X
XXXXXXXXX

0 get a cover save from shots fired from D cause the shot goes between the front 2 X's

to get around this my group play that the only gaps the the cover save can be applied to is the gap to the nearest member of the same unit - in other words the maxium gap can be 2" due to coherency

Nope, we got the point. You think that a badly-worded poll that doesn't actually include all of the relevant options will give you some sort of proof that a significant number of players are playing this rule wrong.

In practice, what is happening is that some people are voting based on whatever they manage to figure out the provided options mean... and some other people aren't voting due to not understanding the options as you have written them, or due to the correct option not being included in the poll.

Which tells you absolutely nothing in any way useful.

So I think we're about done here. If you would like to try again with a poll that actually covers the options and is worded in such a way as to be clear what it is you're asking and what the different interpretations actually are, feel free.