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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.



The 'Cover' rules (pg 22) say: "Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it."




QUESTION: When drawing line of sight involving an intervening unit and/or area terrain how do you determine when you are firing over the terrain/unit as opposed to when you are firing through the terrain/unit?


For the illustrative diagrams below, please ignore any discrepancies in perspective between what is shown in the picture and what would be seen if a true 'model's eye view' was taken. Just assume that what the diagram illustrates is the proper perspective from the firing model's eye view.



Firing through/over an intervening unit.
The Tau Fire Warrior (bottom left corner of the picture) is firing at the Ork mob behind the intervening Grot unit.

In example A, The Grot unit is only considered as tall as the highest point of each individual model, which means the Firewarrior can cleanly see 3 out of the 5 Orks over the top of the Grot unit and the Ork mob gets no cover save.

In example B, The Grot unit is considered as tall as the highest point of the tallest model in the unit (the Slaver), which means the Firewarrior's line of sight to all the Orks most certainly passes through the Grot unit as opposed to over it and the Ork mob gets a cover save.



Firing through/over intervening area terrain.
The Tau Fire Warrior (bottom left corner of the picture) is firing at the Ork mob behind the intervening 'ruins' area terrain piece.

In example A, The ruins are only considered as tall as the highest point of each individual terrain element (if this was a forest that would be each tree), which means the Firewarrior can cleanly see at least 3 out of the 5 Orks over the top of the ruins and the Ork mob gets no cover save.

In example B, The ruins are considered as tall as the highest point of any individual terrain element in the piece (if this was a forest that would be the tallest tree), which means the Firewarrior's line of sight to all the Orks most certainly passes through the ruins as opposed to over it and the Ork mob gets a cover save.




OPTION A - Example A in both diagrams above. When drawing line of sight over intervening units/area terrain the unit/area terrain is only as tall as the individual models/elements in the unit/area terrain (for the purpose of this poll it doesn't matter what point on the model you use to judge their height, be it their head or their arm waving over their head, etc. As long as you think that a unit doesn't uniformly count as being as tall as it's tallest model/element for this purpose, you should vote 'A').



OPTION B - Example B in both diagrams above. When drawing line of sight over intervening units/area terrain the unit/area terrain is as tall as the tallest model/element in the unit/area terrain (for the purpose of this poll it doesn't matter what point on the model you use to judge their height, be it their head or their arm waving over their head, etc. As long as you think that a unit uniformly counts as being as tall as it's tallest model/element for this purpose, you should vote 'B').



OPTION C - Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I voted option A. I can see myself getting down to see if my crisis suit can see the whole enemy unit over my fire warriors, and would not be using the height of the tallest fire warrior.

From that perspective, it's pretty clear that the majority of the ork unit is not obstructed to the FW. TLOS is just that - True LOS not some form of magic cylinder.

edit: great pics btw on these rule questions.

A.

Another reason those laser pointers are useful toys.

Definitely A for me, I didn't like the concept of magic cylinders before and I definitely don't like the idea of incorporating them with true LOS rules.

A for me as well. TLOS means just that. Nowhere in the rules is magic cylinder referenced, or any form of it.

In the first grots picture, the area enclosed doesn't cover both grots weapons being held up.

3 of the 5 models are covered by the grots weapons however the middle Ork only has a foot covered by a grot blasta and therefore isn't counted as being covered (page 16) so the whole unit isn't covered.

==========================

In the first building picture, the area enclosed is correct although because GW didn't say you must determine that ruins with bases are area terrain this has to be decided in every...single...game. I think most people will end up playing that way, but in tournament play it might not end up being area terrain.

Hmmm, interesting point stelek, I had assumed you would naturally ignore when a weapon banner etc blocks line of sight just as having line of sight to them would not constitute seeing the model but there's no RAW to support that.

Only certain parts of your model "count" as being valid for targeting purposes.

Everything counts towards blocking it.

5" high antennas on top of nurglings will provide a valid cover save for everything in the game except vehicles.

It will also probably get you punched in the nose, but hey it's always fun to abuse the rules once, right? lol

I voted ( A ) as ( B ) is a throwback to magic cylinder.

I think the rules were built to abolish cylinders. We play A.

I voted A, because that what the current rules say. I wish it was something else. TLOS is just a time consuming bad idea IMO.

Stelek wrote:Only certain parts of your model "count" as being valid for targeting purposes.

Everything counts towards blocking it.

How can that be. If TLOS is ignored for targeting models weapons, banners, ect...how could said weapons, banners, ect be used to block TLOS.

Hell, better not tell that to nid players or you will start seeing waves of genestealers armed with beach blankets and bill boards.

wyomingfox wrote:How can that be. If TLOS is ignored for targeting models weapons, banners, ect...how could said weapons, banners, ect be used to block TLOS.

They still block LOS because the rules say that they block LOS.

Or more specifically, the rules only say that they don't count for LOS to the model. The rest of the time, the rules tell you to use actual LOS.


Around here, we've been playing since 2nd edition that anything that doesn't count for LOS to the model also doesn't block LOS... but it's never been a part of the actual rules.

I voted option A.

TLOS is what it is. there are no more cylinders.

the first example, A is exactly right. if the orks are more than a little back from the gretchin then they dont get the cover save

this makes elevated terrain much more valuable

NaZ

Ill go with stelek, the weapons stick out past the zone there, and also add height to a model.

as for the nurgling with an antenna, i think a 10" high and 15" long banner is in order

but i can see things like that as stupid.

but as a downside to this, sometimes it might bring up stupid questions as to the smallest of items messing everything up.

Stelek wrote:Only certain parts of your model "count" as being valid for targeting purposes.

Everything counts towards blocking it.

5" high antennas on top of nurglings will provide a valid cover save for everything in the game except vehicles.

It will also probably get you punched in the nose, but hey it's always fun to abuse the rules once, right? lol

QFT

Excuse me while I put banners on all of my grots

Really, I like the magic cylinder B option, why, because i don't want to sit and argue the minute points of tlos. I don't want to worry about what figure in what position. I don't want to worry about any conversions that I do and how its going to effect targeting.

Its faster and easier to go, oh you can see the models, oh you can shoot them, shooting model is on the same level as the intervening unit, target unit gets a cover save.

Through the rulebook, they want to make things flow fast and easy.

Pass me my beer and peanuts i wanna play some 40k

I went with [A] on this one it just seems to makes more sense.

-RedHotAction

For those arguing the 'weapons' aspect, it doesn't really affect the poll. The concept is still in question.

Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it."

In both examples... I would argue the last sentence of the rules you quoted... From your model's perspective, I am shooting OVER the area terrain not through it.

How to judge OVER? In both of your "model's eye views, I am above the straight line height of the terrain/unit. Sorry you have no cover.

I voted C but A is close to accurate on the first example but I guess I am more with Stelek on the ruins example.

On this point, anyone want to buy some kneeling firewarriors off of me?

Oh and wondering if some people have the old grot model with the long rifle he is holding above his head?

LOL TLOS is making modeling important... I am waiting for the Wraithlord in the prone sniper position....
bad for blast markers.... Maybe just in a firer kneel.

I voted A as it is all TLOS now and the Grots/building aren't blocking much of anything.

Though, I think they made the "reduce the cover save by 1" compromise for just such instances.

That Warboss needs to keep his Boyz closer to his meatshie...er Grots.

I went for A, as B seems to be too theoretical. If you look at its realistically it should be A.

My problem with TLOS is that whilst it is an attemplt to add realism it does mean that players with dramatic models are penalised. I would say that banners etc do not block line of sight anyway, as the models would be moving in real life and are not bulletproof. For evidence see the opening sequence to Dawn of War.

TLOS is best as long as it isn't abused.

I think this is why they made that markerlight.

the idea was if any part of the crosshair is blocked, the model being shot at is in cover.

a laser pointer would suffice though I think.

it doesn't come up with the people I play with fortunately

NaZ

Stelek wrote:5" high antennas on top of nurglings will provide a valid cover save for everything in the game except vehicles.

Also not for monstrous creatures - see the Swarm rules.

I vote A.

G

Voted C: I do not treat units as terrain. If you can see most of the models in a unit without touching another model as far as LOS is concerned then there is no cover saves.

With terrain if they are behind terrain then they get a cover save. Otherwise the issue would become way too complicated. I may be wrong about it but I thought that there was a diagram in the book that showed a model behind two trees and they still has a cover save even though they were not in the area terrain.

Hum...

For your first example when it comes to intervening troops my play group is usually pretty casual about it, in most cases 4+ cover is given. Your first example to me is fairly close so often I think we'd opt for B or go with 5+.

In your second example, it me it looks far more cut and dry that it is option A.

-Jara

I chose A not only because it seems right, according to the rules, it just seems more forgiving. B complicates the issue for me despite the ease it suggests.

If the blocking unit was a piece of terrain, like a saddle (two small hills with a low part between them), I think there would be no question.

If the ork player really wanted the grots to give a cover save, the grots should be like a half inch in front of the other unit.

NaZ wrote:I think this is why they made that markerlight.

the idea was if any part of the crosshair is blocked, the model being shot at is in cover.

a laser pointer would suffice though I think.

it doesn't come up with the people I play with fortunately

NaZ

But the rules also allow models to be 'in cover' when LOS is drawn in between models in an intervening unit or in between distinct terrain elements in area terrain (like ruined walls in a ruin or trees in a forest base).

A laser pointer isn't going to help you in this situation because the rules grant an abstract save when LOS is drawn through these areas but not when LOS is drawn over such intervening obstacles. However, the rules do not establish exactly how to determine when you are firing over or through such an area which is exactly the point of this poll.

There is no 'right' way to play, as the rules simply don't cover this situation (beyond mentioning that it occurs).

smart_alex wrote:Voted C: I do not treat units as terrain. If you can see most of the models in a unit without touching another model as far as LOS is concerned then there is no cover saves.

With terrain if they are behind terrain then they get a cover save. Otherwise the issue would become way too complicated. I may be wrong about it but I thought that there was a diagram in the book that showed a model behind two trees and they still has a cover save even though they were not in the area terrain.

Yes, the diagram in the book shows a models behind a forest base. The model in between the trees counts as being in cover while the model off to the side of the trees does not. But we are dealing with a slightly different version of that situation. In both my examples, the unit behind is most definitely in between elements of the intervening unit/terrain feature. The only question is exactly when is the firing model drawing LOS over the intervening element and when is he firing through it.