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So we've all heard about stores hosting a prelim where a handfull of people show up, and the top 3 move on.. We've also heard about stores with 40+ players in attendance, and the top 3 move on as well.

This strikes me as kind of odd. Some people are fighting tooth and nail for a qualifying spot, others get their spot just by showing up.

Should it instead be something like 1 in 10 players can go to the semis? It would curb people moving on from tiny events where showing up is neary an automatic qualification.

Or instead, should all the scores from every store be pooled in a region.. Then the top however many players move on, say 1 in 10 for the combined sum of all stores.

Example:
Store A has 5 players with 70+ points
Store B has 0 players with 70+
Store A sends all 5 to the semi's and store B sends 0.

This would allow the semi's to better represent who actually deserves to be there, and not who got a luck of the draw.

What are you thoughts? Too fair? Too broken? Unfair? Want an easy spot? Easy spots piss you off? Other?

To much work for GW and definitely to much work for a free tournament for local TO's. Don't expect it to change. The prelims are a joke anyway unless you live in an area with an insane amount of good player ::cough::

Hulksmash wrote:To much work for GW and definitely to much work for a free tournament for local TO's. Don't expect it to change. The prelims are a joke anyway unless you live in an area with an insane amount of good player ::cough::

I don't think it'd be more than a afternoon or two on excel for anyone. As far as work for TO's go, they just submit names/scores/emails.

Prelims are a crap-shoot as is.

I think it would be cool if they had a Nation Wide "wildcard" pool. Basicly if you finished in 4-5th and your scores were higher than most stores in your area 1-3rd you can get an invite to the next round. I think part of the buzz is lost when people do well but get edged out because someone's final round throws it or gives them extra bonus points.

You also have people who play in multiple tournaments, with one on Saturday and then again on Sunday. As far as I know there is no restriction against it, and it is a great way to hedge your bets.

There is a certain amount of gamesmanship that goes into actually selecting where you will play, just as there is in selecting your army, etc.

For all the griping about mech lists and Scenario 3, the 'Ard Boyz lends itself to mechanized lists because they are faster to deploy and faster to play; and with only a 2.5 hour time limit that is a big deal. So when you are picking a list you not only want to pick something that is effective, but that is also playable. There are lots of styles of armies that are effective to play, but which do not lend themselves to the 'Ard Boyz time limit.

The same goes for picking a tournament, assuming there are multiple locations near you.

And there are pros and cons either way. For example, at a smaller tournament, there is a much greater likelihood that ALL of the better players WILL have to play each other at some point. I won my local tournament, but I had to play the guys who finished 2d and 3d. That simply would not happen at a larger tournament. So even though I was at a smaller tournament, I can say with some level of surety that I probably had a harder time getting through than some people at larger tournaments.

There were 3 tournaments offered within 1 hour of my home. A group of some of the more experienced players where I live got together and discussed up front where we were going to play ahead of time, so that we would not have to play each other, and to increase our chances of getting through. I happened to choose the smallest of the three, but where all of the players were roughly at the same skill level. And I had three very tough, punishing games. Two friends played at the largest of the three close tournaments, and they scored massacres all the way through. (I have not gotten a report from a friend at the third tournament yet.)

I do think there is some credence to larger tournies offering more spots though. Maybe 21-30 players should get +1 spot, and 31+ players should get +2.

But it should all even out in the semis, where there are fewer locations and less access.

Mundar wrote:
Example:
Store A has 5 players with 70+ points
Store B has 0 players with 70+
Store A sends all 5 to the semi's and store B sends 0.

Store A has a ton of new players
Store B has only veterans

Store A's mediocre players beat up on the newbs and all get to go to the finals
Store B's vets fight for hard fought victories over equally skilled opponents and don't

Sounds like a great idea...

TBH I think GW should work on writing better scenarios first and then consider other things to make their events more competitive.

GW has not put a limit on the # of stores who can host the 1st round. In some areas, that may be only one store, others, 3+. I don't think it's in GW's best interest to limit the number of stores advertising GW product through free tourney that uses a points limit much higher than normal. I'd wager the only reason Ard Boyz even continues is because it is deemed profitable to promote.

I don't get what the whining is about; if you are the best, you won and moved on. If you didn't win, guess what that means...

That's just the thing.. the best don't always move on...

Kinda missing the whole point there bud and just dismissing it as whining

Mundar wrote:That's just the thing.. the best don't always move on...

Kinda missing the whole point there bud and just dismissing it as whining

look at it like this... did you play any sports in High school?

if you did, well you play your district, you can go undefeated in your district and still SUCKKKKKK compared to the rest of the state, which is why there are these things called play offs...they are very similar to ohh i dunno..semi finals? finals? everyone will eventually get weeded out..

Feels like whining to me. If you live in a place that has a slew of amazing players then you can consol yourself if they win win semi's or even the finals (assuming they wanted to make it there) that they came from your store. Basically the only round that isn't solid is round 1. Which generally doesn't matter much anyway if your good. Also dice and everything else can hurt. Right now it's easy and doesn't require any extra work which is why GW promotes the hell out of it. If it did take up any more time or money they'd drop it.

The best three don't always move on, period.

Your three best players could walk into the store and be betrayed by their dice at the critical moment. The three best players could show up and face the scissors to their paper. The three best players could show up and face mediocre players whose dice are burning hot that day.

Doesn't sound like the best to me.

TopC wrote:

Mundar wrote:That's just the thing.. the best don't always move on...

Kinda missing the whole point there bud and just dismissing it as whining

look at it like this... did you play any sports in High school?

if you did, well you play your district, you can go undefeated in your district and still SUCKKKKKK compared to the rest of the state, which is why there are these things called play offs...they are very similar to ohh i dunno..semi finals? finals? everyone will eventually get weeded out..

I actually have seen this happen.... School in Northern NY, Ruled their local area, went to states every year... never got past the first round.

The stores with "smaller" or lower attendance are more likely to have tougher games played in them due to the level of competition. The "Larger, more attended places would more than likely match a strong player or list against a weaker or even noob player/list, at least in the first round. That is the way things work with an "Open" style event, anyone that wishes to can enter and compete.

In cases where there are multiple stores, perhaps the best idea is to establish a Maximum on the number of players at each location. Of course this would require people to sign up early and actually attend the event.... though a short "waiting list" could be used if some-one doesnt show.

I went to a different store this year as I my FLGS is hosting a semi-finals and I want as many people from our area to be represented as possible. This shop was a bit smaller and I was afraid that I would be just beating up on some newbs. Luckily some people came from out of town and the skill density went from newbtastic to vet-core. I had to play my long time nemesis (and buddy) in round 2 and had a very hard fought draw, one of the most enjoyable games I've had in a while infact.

Funniest part of this story was that two guys came from out of town because they had heard that this shop was mostly newbs and they where hoping for some easy pickings. One had to play me and the other my nemesis and both got tabled!

Really looking forward to the semis as in last years semis I had two of the toughest games I have ever had and I hope to repeat the experience!

There are still suckers out there who think a 3-round tournament is capable of accurately ranking players according to skill?

Is there a point to using the word "suckers" other than to troll?

Danny Internets wrote:There are still PEOPLE out there who think a 3-round tournament is capable of accurately ranking players according to skill?

Yea. I agree with you. Ranking according to skill is a much tougher and complex thing to do... especially when they do not have a ranking system in place.

I suppose something can be done like the MtG system from the DCI, but setting up such a system in an already established game where there are no set of tournament "floor rules" or offical Judges will be tough. I suppose it can be done if someone has the time/money/programming skills to do so.

Although I have to agree that multiple venues offer more chances to move on to the semis, I have to say I hope to face at least 1 of those noobs from a random venue in semis that just showed up so therefore moved on. This is not a bad thing. As fun as a hard fought match can be, as was two of mine in the first round, it can be a lovely start to a day to table a noob off the start and get you ready and pumped to take on a heavy hitter in the next phase of the semis. Sure, one would say that semi's is a place for better players, but bring on the noobs, I welcome the chance for my crons to table someone in semis. Oh, and I am among those suffering from the grand dellusion of being number 1 'ard boy 2010. You may ask why, I say WHY NOT! look forward to seeing you in semis!

frgsinwntr wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:There are still PEOPLE out there who think a 3-round tournament is capable of accurately ranking players according to skill?

Yea. I agree with you. Ranking according to skill is a much tougher and complex thing to do... especially when they do not have a ranking system in place.

I suppose something can be done like the MtG system from the DCI, but setting up such a system in an already established game where there are no set of tournament "floor rules" or offical Judges will be tough. I suppose it can be done if someone has the time/money/programming skills to do so.

IIRC, there is new website that is attempting to implement a ranking system for 40K, FOW, etc. It is called Rankings HQ: http://rankingshq.com/

If enough tournaments and people start using it, then it could become a useful tool.

I thought stores had to have 12 players (6 active tables) for the tournament to be legit.

Hi

I really don't understand why anyone considers Ardboyz to be anything more than an excuse to have a good time playing with a rather large force...

Determining the "best" in just three rounds is a massive crap shoot, as the right matchups in the right scenarios are all larger factors than skill.

If you qualified - cool, go have fun in the semis, probably against tougher competition. If you are in Ontario, I'll see you at Phoenix Games on June 12.

If you didn't, hopefully you had fun playing 2500 point games for 40K - because really that is the whole point of the exercise.

As for more spots for larger places, that runs counter to the idea of the prelims - encouraging sales and gaming at brick and mortar stores. Things shouldn't get serious until the semis, if at all.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

Eldanar wrote:You also have people who play in multiple tournaments, with one on Saturday and then again on Sunday. As far as I know there is no restriction against it, and it is a great way to hedge your bets.

There is. I doubt the TO's were very stringent about it, though.

carlosthecraven wrote:Hi

I really don't understand why anyone considers Ardboyz to be anything more than an excuse to have a good time playing with a rather large force...

Determining the "best" in just three rounds is a massive crap shoot, as the right matchups in the right scenarios are all larger factors than skill.

If you qualified - cool, go have fun in the semis, probably against tougher competition. If you are in Ontario, I'll see you at Phoenix Games on June 12.

If you didn't, hopefully you had fun playing 2500 point games for 40K - because really that is the whole point of the exercise.

As for more spots for larger places, that runs counter to the idea of the prelims - encouraging sales and gaming at brick and mortar stores. Things shouldn't get serious until the semis, if at all.

Cheers,
Carlos the Craven

After 4 years of 'ard boyz experience I have to say the tournament is *anything* Except about fun.. I really do feel bad for the people who come out all wide eyed and lured by the prospect of a "free tournament".. thinking its going to be casual or something.. Then they get so irritated cause they get stomped by insanely unfun to play against lists (mine included).. GW really succeeds in marketing 'ard boyz in a false manner heh

This is not a casual for-fun tournament due to the prizes in the 2nd round. Ive easily gotten over 2000$ in merchandise just from 'ard boyz. Im not saying I play like a WAAC but a lot do, it can be very cut throat

Its a long day that is very stressful due to the shortness of rounds, the slowness of players at that point level and the fact that someone "cheating" to get ahead by 2 points can win the whole thing so you also have to be diligent.. AND hope that the TO's arent corrupt and are doing their jobs.. (My store doesnt have these issues but apparently a lot do)

So in closing, if you want a fun tournament Id suggest your average RTT.. 'ard boyz is about huge prizes and always has been..

Well, your store does have those problems. It's just that you're the guy that most people accuse of cheating (or whining, or calling the store owner at home to get scores changed, or bullying), so you don't seem to mind.

Maybe it's not true, but I know guys that drove hours out of their way to play at other stores rather than put up with you.

kirasu: It shouldn't only be about the prizes. If people are spending money and time
to make money, then they're losing out in the end. You'd be better served arguing
that it's fun to try out tricked out lists against tricked out lists, except 40k doesn't
really make that sort of thing fun, either.

So in the end, Ard Boyz is about driving sales. Why else offer up so much prize support?

I dont know about you, but i really dont care why GW wants to give me prizes to do something i am going to do anyway. When my hobby has an opportunity to support itself with prizes, even when there s a chance i could be finagled out of something by poor sportsmanship or rule bending, I play! I would rather have the opportunity to have at a player and get something out of it then no opportunity at all. I look forward to random scenarios, free prizes, adjustments of rules and playtime with my army. If its all a marketing ploy to get me to buy more, I, after some deep introspective thought, consider myself a sheep and will succumb to it! There really isnt that much bad about 'ard boys. Everybody wins. It s an opportunity to smash an opponent, get smashed, field what i would like to, and if the dice gods smile on me, with a little strategy maybe take home some new piece to add to my armada. oh an theres always that off chance i get a brand new armada to play with! sounds win win to me.

Mundar wrote:So we've all heard about stores hosting a prelim where a handfull of people show up, and the top 3 move on.. We've also heard about stores with 40+ players in attendance, and the top 3 move on as well.

This strikes me as kind of odd. Some people are fighting tooth and nail for a qualifying spot, others get their spot just by showing up.

The same thing happens in Sports all the time. Take Major League Baseball for example. The AL West(an embarrassing suckfest *ducks*) gets into the same playoffs as the epic and legendary AL East. Of course they get smacked out first round, but that's exactly what will happen to the people who coast into the semifinals for Ard Boyz. Then again, who's to say that the people that showed up at Prelims and won by default weren't going to win the tourney anyway?

It will all come out, as they say, in the wash.

40k isn't competitive. 'Ard Boyz is as competitive as it gets in a generally uncompetitive hobby. The sooner you can bring yourself to come to terms with this, the easier a time you'll have trying to understand GW's tournament scene.