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Ok, in a game today, I was rolling my Veterans around in Chimeras, and I decided to unload some plasma fury onto a squad in front of me. However, my opponent said that I couldn't, because my Multi-Laser was blocking LOS. I argued that in the rule, it says all shots are measured from the hatch. Even so, no LOS, so my question is: Does the Multi-Laser count as obstructing LOS? Additionally, he tried to shoot at my units which just shot out, that can't happen, right? I let him to avoid the arguing(it was 1 bolter shot), figuring I could find an answer here.

Gavo wrote:Ok, in a game today, I was rolling my Veterans around in Chimeras, and I decided to unload some plasma fury onto a squad in front of me. However, my opponent said that I couldn't, because my Multi-Laser was blocking LOS. I argued that in the rule, it says all shots are measured from the hatch. Even so, no LOS, so my question is: Does the Multi-Laser count as obstructing LOS? Additionally, he tried to shoot at my units which just shot out, that can't happen, right? I let him to avoid the arguing(it was 1 bolter shot), figuring I could find an answer here.

For the LoS issue, you have to get down and check. That is the ONLY way to be 100% sure. I don't personally have any Chimeras, so I cannot tell you my opinion on the matter, as I do not have one.

As for shooting units inside transports, no. It cannot happen. Period.

Gwar! wrote:

Gavo wrote:Ok, in a game today, I was rolling my Veterans around in Chimeras, and I decided to unload some plasma fury onto a squad in front of me. However, my opponent said that I couldn't, because my Multi-Laser was blocking LOS. I argued that in the rule, it says all shots are measured from the hatch. Even so, no LOS, so my question is: Does the Multi-Laser count as obstructing LOS? Additionally, he tried to shoot at my units which just shot out, that can't happen, right? I let him to avoid the arguing(it was 1 bolter shot), figuring I could find an answer here.

For the LoS issue, you have to get down and check. That is the ONLY way to be 100% sure. I don't personally have any Chimeras, so I cannot tell you my opinion on the matter, as I do not have one.

As for shooting units inside transports, no. It cannot happen. Period.

Even if you take a model's eye view, I very seriously doubt that that tiny multilaser has the breadth to obscure a unit from view.

Gwar's got it on the shooting at a unit in a transport of course, can't happen

As to the multilaser blocking the LOS, its LOS from the hatch, so although *possible* it would only happen in a very very specific situation. Remember you're firing from any point on that hatch outline, the multilaser turret isn't as wide as the hatch, and if you're firing at a unit, its likely visible from another angle and not hidden in the one specific spot that the turret blocks from view.

Just pulled out my Chimera to check and unless the ML turret is at about a 45 degree angle it completely blocks LOS to the tiny hatch on top.

When the turret is roataed 45 degrees(pointing right) There is a small LOS letting you fire at anything from the left 40-45% of the Chimera, basically you can see from directly in front of the Heavy bolter mount and anywhere left of that line. On the right you can only see anything in the right side arc.

Left, right and rear arcs are all clear.

P.S. the multi-laser turret is wider than the hatch.

targetawg wrote:Gwar's got it on the shooting at a unit in a transport of course, can't happen

As to the multilaser blocking the LOS, its LOS from the hatch, so although *possible* it would only happen in a very very specific situation. Remember you're firing from any point on that hatch outline, the multilaser turret isn't as wide as the hatch, and if you're firing at a unit, its likely visible from another angle and not hidden in the one specific spot that the turret blocks from view.

You can also fire from the lasgun emplacements on the sides if range isn't an issue.

puma713 wrote:

targetawg wrote:Gwar's got it on the shooting at a unit in a transport of course, can't happen

As to the multilaser blocking the LOS, its LOS from the hatch, so although *possible* it would only happen in a very very specific situation. Remember you're firing from any point on that hatch outline, the multilaser turret isn't as wide as the hatch, and if you're firing at a unit, its likely visible from another angle and not hidden in the one specific spot that the turret blocks from view.

You can also fire from the lasgun emplacements on the sides if range isn't an issue.

No you can't - the hatch is the fire point.

If the chimera is pointed right at the target then the turret can be a problem. The trick is to turn the chimera slightly to the right in movement phase.

Ok, thanks, I was having trouble with that. Dang fat Multilaser...

Scott-S6 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

targetawg wrote:Gwar's got it on the shooting at a unit in a transport of course, can't happen

As to the multilaser blocking the LOS, its LOS from the hatch, so although *possible* it would only happen in a very very specific situation. Remember you're firing from any point on that hatch outline, the multilaser turret isn't as wide as the hatch, and if you're firing at a unit, its likely visible from another angle and not hidden in the one specific spot that the turret blocks from view.

You can also fire from the lasgun emplacements on the sides if range isn't an issue.

No you can't - the hatch is the fire point.

If the chimera is pointed right at the target then the turret can be a problem. The trick is to turn the chimera slightly to the right in movement phase.

I might ask for a TO ruling. The hatch is the fire point for "simplicity sake". Not because that is actually where they are firing from. Actually, they are firing from the fixed lasgun emplacements, but, for simplicity sake, they call the hatch the fire point. I would ask to damn "simplicity sake" and let me fire from where they're actually firing from.

Probably be overruled though, and that's fine. I don't play Guard anyway

If you were firing from the lasgun ports, you would be firing lasguns.

it clearly states that all los is drawn from the top hatch.

It just states that any 5 models may shoot from the hatch on a chimera. With whatever weapons they have. The lasguns modelled onto the vehicle aren't necessarily the weapons being used.

They don't have to be firing lasguns anymore. Vets broadsiding with melta or plasma is legal and valid from a chimera.

And if you look on the chimera model there are several hatches, On the back, on the top, on the turret and on the front viewport. Take a pick as to what "hatch" they are shooting from.

It's the large double hatch on the rear top of the model. I know that this isn't explicitly stated in the Chimera profile but you'd have the same argument claiming a track link was the multilaser.

the new Chimera turret i believe it bigger and harder to see past

i dont shoot directly forward through the turrent when i play

This makes me want to ask the same question a friend of mine asked, just to see how people will respond: Do you take LOS directly from the hatch? If so, how do you cope with the fact that the hatch is recessed into the chasis? My friend was fairly certain that you could technically not see above the lip that the doors fit into, thus it couldn't shoot at anything shorter than the chimera itself. I responded by flipping my doors halfway open, and that ended that conversation (as it wasn't a very serious question anyway). It got me thinking though, has anyone dealt with that before?

Most opponents won't begrudge you the shots from the rear hatch no matter the LOS. As pointed out the LOS directly to the front can be an issue so make sure you turn the tank a little sideways if you anticipate shooting to the front. Technically the tank is a different unit than the squad inside so you can't shoot through it... including the turret.

Of course Monstrous creatures and Vehicles make it extremely easy to trace LOS from the hatch to the target. It's only with troops and low targets that this even comes up.

Most of the time my shooting comes from the Chimera itself (ML, HB, HS) so if the squad inside is shooting something has gone pear shaped.

I draw LOS from the plane that is just above the hatch doors - they're not really recessed. This does mean that if a single model - say an IC with a powerfist, is in base contact with the chimera they might not be able to draw LOS.

It's an abstraction, we have to imagine a model physically poking themselves out of the hatch or fireport and firing.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:I draw LOS from the plane that is just above the hatch doors - they're not really recessed. This does mean that if a single model - say an IC with a powerfist, is in base contact with the chimera they might not be able to draw LOS.

That would also mean that you could not fire out the left or right side of the vehicle as they would be blocked by the hatch doors themselves. The guys inside really would have to get waist hight to shoot over the doors and that would also mean that they could fire over the turret to. If you draw the line from there as being where their head is as well for LOS then they probably would not be able to shoot in ANY direction because the gun would not be out of the hatch.


Not to mention that almost ALL models released from GW for IG have any models riding a tank are shown waist up in the vehicle; I say almost only because I can't think of any for Imperial guard where it is less. EX:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1120045&prodId=prod40011a

The people who are gonna get super strict on this are also the ones who won't let you fire a flame template because part of it will touch the tank...

If you were to use imaginary open hatches, I'd draw LOS from the top of the final resting spot of the pretend hatches. That's a little too complex for me so I just go with the hatches not opening.

There is a tank commander who just has a head poking out on the IG Accessories frame.

The thing about all this is that the LOS problem here is with the vehicle itself; people are saying that you won't be able to draw LOS forward because of the turret; then I'm going to be a stickler and say you will not be able to draw LOS out either side because the hatches have to open for them to shoot and those will block LOS.


Basically the best resolution to this is that LOS is from the hatch but that the vehicle does not interfere with itself much like LOS works in a squad. Other wise we'd have guardsmen shooting each other in the back.

The chimera's not a part of the embarked unit, so it blocks their LOS. That's the downside of a firing point behind a turret. Most people play the hatch not "opening", but if you did then drawing LOS from the top of the open hatch would be fine - you're still drawing it from the top hatch, after all.

The turret blocking LOS is one of the few downsides of the Chimera. Just be sure to position it so the broadside can fire.

So almost every time you'd like to shoot someone from chimera, he gets at least cover right? This kinda sucks

Kubik wrote:So almost every time you'd like to shoot someone from chimera, he gets at least cover right? This kinda sucks

Nah, but to get a really good LOS, you'll have to expose the Chimera's juicy AV 10 side armor.

Kubik wrote:So almost every time you'd like to shoot someone from chimera, he gets at least cover right? This kinda sucks

Only if you're positioned such that the provides turret covers half the enemy unit. I don't think it's ever happened in my games, and I always have a giant buff dude sticking out of my turrets.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Most people play the hatch not "opening", but if you did then drawing LOS from the top of the open hatch would be fine - you're still drawing it from the top hatch, after all.

Of course, there's no rules for opening/closing doors and hatches mid battle, so you would have to keep the hatches open all game leading to arguments about what exactly constitutes the hull of a vehicle.

Personally, I'm forgiving with regards to allow units inside to shoot below the horizontal plane the hatch is on, but feel the turret should block LOS.