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I tried to search but the function kept screwing up so apologies if this has been answered many times before.

Can a Dwarf grudge thrower (so any stone thrower) fire over top of your own troops? As an indirect fire weapon it makes sense but I haven't played fantasy for a while and I want to be sure. I can't find anything on the issue in the rulebook so I suspect that the grudge thrower must have a straight line of sight to the target without intervening models but I hope I'm wrong (eg. firing from same level as the friendlies and enemies - not from a hill).

You have to be able to see where you are firing.

Page 92 of the BRB.

Declare which enemy model is going to be the target. (Remember the target has to be visible from the machine itself). Then declare how far the stone is to be fired.

Thanks.

If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

Warpsolution wrote:If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

It's totally in bad faith and automatically tags you as TFG.

Warpsolution wrote:If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

No you cannot.

You must gues the range to the target. If you do not do so you have not followed the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

No you cannot.

You must gues the range to the target. If you do not do so you have not followed the rules.

This is the same as pre measuring movement in 40k.

Completely legal, it's only the "intent" that is not allowed, and all you have to say is "I Honestly thought that unit on the other side of the board were 14" away!"

Unless you want to delve into the realm of thoughtcrime, there isn't really any way to stop it.

Also, 1st post in the Fantasy forums. Yay!

Actualy it isnt the same as premeasuring.

You have to make best efforts to guess the range to the target. Fantasy *already* makes doing something completely wrong a "crime" - you cannot declare a charge you *know* to be out of range, for example. Thsi falls under the same category: guessing the range to another unit and passing it off is illegal.

Fantasy DOES essentially have thought crime - before this people used to declare 24" charges against 6th ed Warp Lightning Cannons, as they were forced to flee if you did so, meaning (on Ld5) not much chance of them rallying, and even if they do that is probably 2 turns where it isnt firing.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

No you cannot.

You must gues the range to the target. If you do not do so you have not followed the rules.

This is the same as pre measuring movement in 40k.

Completely legal, it's only the "intent" that is not allowed, and all you have to say is "I Honestly thought that unit on the other side of the board were 14" away!"

Unless you want to delve into the realm of thoughtcrime, there isn't really any way to stop it.

Also, 1st post in the Fantasy forums. Yay!

While there's no way to prove it, doing this instantly marks you as TFG and will drawn scorn from most players. This is like when people used to declared dragon charges at targets 40" away to make them take terror tests. Off by a few inches is one thing, especially if you're a new player. However, anyone with even modest experience using stone throwers knows their distances; if you 'overshoot' by 10" into an invalid but juicier target, people WILL know you're cheating.

It really is tough to write any sort of rule, though, that would prevent this sort of gamesmanship from occuring without some sort of common sense.

Which competitive gamers do not have.

Right off the top of my head, I would suggest that if the original shot hits the unit (or the center hole within 3 inches of the unit), but scatters, no matter where it scatters it can hit the other unit.

If the guess of the shot initially lands outside of that "killzone" only scatters that hit any unit that you could draw a LOS to from the firing unit would be affected.

That seems like the most "Fair" way to play it.

The **rumour** I had heard for 8th ed was that fantasy was going to move to a place and scatter system for war machines.

I had been on the fence regarding the issue, as I rather liked the guess range system, but having place and scatter would certainly eliminate this whole issue.
You would only be able to place on legal targets, those in LoS.

As far as the topic at hand goes, I am in agreement with those against this type of play. Its not hard (with a bit of practice) to be within an inch or two of your guesses.
Missing by 10" is definately poor sport.

@ GWAR: A rule being difficult to enforce doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

@Lehnsherr: Not to derail this thing on to rumor discussion, but I hope guess ranges *are* gone. It's a sometimes interesting aspect of the game, but I don't feel like it *really* adds that much to gameplay. As you said, at the top levels, I don't usually see folks miss their guess by more than an inch. Add to that it's an area of the rules that's currently difficult to enforce as written, it really ought to change.

With Guess Ranges being gone, the efficiency of guess rage war-machines is going to go up by a *startling* number. Mostly because people are going to learn what the "pefect" scenario is for partials/complete, and 33% of the time when they fire the war-machine it will be the best possible hit on the unit they are firing at.

--Note, I guess it's a tad less than 33% because 16.5% of the time you roll a hit, you'll also roll a mis-fire... s% 27.555% you'll hit with the best possible efficiency...

When it's the best possible hit, that also means that deviation will mean less, A full deviation of 6, 8 or 10 inches are the only deviations that will be 100% detrimental to the accuracy of the shot.

As it stands, even the best players may end up having a 2 inch deviation causing them to miss completely if the arrow is pointing the wrong way.

I honestly think that Dwarf and Empire gunlines are both going to be EXTREMELY terrifying when it comes to guess range templates because of their accuracy when engineers are involved. Tomb Kings/Chaos also will be scary, but not as bad because the Kings can't guarantee 2 shots a turn, and hellcannons are points cost prohibitive.

Not to delve into rumors like everyone else, but grudge throwers and the like going to Str 3 (9) under the hole and allowing armor saves isn't THAT scary anymore. For the points cost and what they can do with just Str 3, I'm not too worried.

To answer the original statement though about overguessing - yes you can generally tell when folks are cheating like that and yes it does violate the rules. If someone does it to me - I let them - but then tell them the shot automatically missed. When they ask why, I tell them thats what happens when they break the rules

Technically, the original question was whether or not you needed line of sight to an enemy to shoot, not whether or not you can purposefully over-guess.

And Mattbranb, while it may be frustrating to have people cheat, cheating in return doesn't seem like a very good way to go about it. How about a civilized discussion? If you're at a tournament, get a judge. If not, and your opponent refuses anyway, I'd consider not playing a casual with someone who differed in their view of the game by that much from my.

Yes, Nosferatu, it is technically illegal, but reinforcing that rule would require the thought police. And hey, what about people who are just terrible at guessing? I know this isn't MtG, but I bet there's been a tourney player or two who pretends to be stupid so he can declare charges with his dragon from 40" and overshoot with his cannon by 10" with a supposedly legitimate excuse.

And finally, I just don't see what the fuss is about. Over shooting just doesn't seem to give people that big of an edge.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:If you want to be sneaky (and some would say unsporting), you can "attempt" to fire at a unit you can see, but actually guess to hit a unit in the same line-of-fire that you technically can't. A lot of people go back-and-forth on this, whether or not its in good faith, but you can do it.

No you cannot.

You must gues the range to the target. If you do not do so you have not followed the rules.

This is the same as pre measuring movement in 40k.

Completely legal, it's only the "intent" that is not allowed, and all you have to say is "I Honestly thought that unit on the other side of the board were 14" away!"

Unless you want to delve into the realm of thoughtcrime, there isn't really any way to stop it.

Also, 1st post in the Fantasy forums. Yay!

And at 17369 posts too, Gwar. Shame on you!

---------------

Yeah, if you do this, your a TFG, and should get a rock thrown through your car window.

...? Wait what? Lets work through them ....

Cannons ... Aim at a model in LOS (from the cannon) declare the range to fire (up to the max range). Roll Artillery die, measure distance (guess+ die) place coin, Roll artillery die and scatter die. No mention of having to try and hit the original targeted model.

Stone thrower... Aim at a model in LOS (from the cannon) declare the range to fire (up to the max range and more then the minimum). Measure distance place coin, Roll artillery die and scatter die. No mention of having to try and hit the original targeted model.

Where the on earth is every one getting that you must Guess to hit the model you were aiming at? Rules are "...declare how far the cannon is going to shoot..." & " then declare how far the rock is to be fired ..." Not "Guess the range to the target model".

Tri - range is defined as "distance to target"

Guess what you have defined in the first step...your target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tri - range is defined as "distance to target"

Guess what you have defined in the first step...your target.

No it is not ... range is the maximum (and some time minimum) distance something can travel.

Range(P26)
All missile weapons have a maximum range that indicates the furthest they can shoot.

...All the target does is give a direction.

The rules require you to guess the range to the target as accurately as you can.
This is clearly not the same as Range, but the dictionary defintion of range.

That is a phrase taken out of context quite a bit. All the 'guess as accurately as possible' is is reinforcing that you can't pre-measure before you guess the range.

I would like to point out that in the last edition this was a perfectly viable and encouraged tactic. IE lob something over the screening unit to hit the hard hitters behind.

But it was changed this edition.

So it might not be a TFG move but a genuine misremembering of rules by a long time player.

Cheers

Andrew

In 6th Edition, stone throwers actually HAD indirect fire. All that was required was that you could see an enemy unit along the line you wished to fire along. You could actually target a unit behind an enemy screening unit, but not at something on the other side of your own guys.

Under 7th, you had to actually SEE your target, and guess range to THAT target. Guessing range to a target behind it is flat-out cheating.

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Guessing range to a target behind it is flat-out cheating.

And what if you honest to goodness thought that unit was X inches away, but it so happens Y Unit is X inches away instead?

How can you prove what I was "thinking"?

On a case by ccase basis,depending on how reasonable a mistake it was. same for declaring illegal charges.

It works surprisingly well,even in tournaments - a judge can easily rule on it.

however glad guessing is gone, it didn't add skill to the game that's for sure!

Firstly declaring charges that cannot be made is fine ... you move directly towards the target unit the end. If we're talking about terror "then test as soon as the terror-causing unit is determined to be within charge range" so you take a test, when the unit is found to be within charge range.

Secondly "Do this without measuring distance to that target, so try to guess the range as accurately as possible" ... Brake this apart ...You have one part which is a must "Do this without measuring distance to that target" so no measuring to the target ... "so try to guess the range as accurately as possible" is at best recommendation.

Tri - except for units such as the 6th ed WLC you had to declare a "flee" reaction - regardless of whether the unit was in charge range or not.

You can also declare charges that cannot succeed so they move before Frenzied chargers, potentially blocking them from charging something useless.

There are *many* reasons why you are NOT allowed to declare something that is obviously "wrong" - at least in 7th ed. You oculd manipulate situations you were not supposed to have control over, given the examples above.

[I also disagree with it being a sugegstion - it tells you to guess the range [distance to target, not Range, as that would make no sense] as accurately as possible. If you are not doing that, you are breaking the rule and thus are cheating. Just because it is not an easy binary switch doesnt stop it being a rule.

Good news is - 8th has stopped all of this anyway

Now that you can pre measure the distance, you have no reason to ever 'think' how far that unit is away.

If it's 42" away, and you guessed 14", then you're a douche and the local gaming circle will probably stop wanting to play with you.

maaksel wrote:Now that you can pre measure the distance, you have no reason to ever 'think' how far that unit is away.

If it's 42" away, and you guessed 14", then you're a douche and the local gaming circle will probably stop wanting to play with you.

What if you have really bad short term memory?

Maaakel - you dont even guess after you measure. You check the unit is within range and then place the marker over the unit. No need to "guess"