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Hey all,


Played my Dark Elves vs. a buddy's High Elves and some questions came up. I will try to explain as best I can without diagrams:

Two Lion Chariots break a block of Dark Elves from a combined frontal charge and subsequently chase it down in a dual pursuit. My War Hydra is behind it and the right Chariot's pursuit roll will put it into the Hydra's flank.

Question #1 - Do you declare all your pursuits, then roll one at a time and resolve them before moving on to the next unit or does it happen simultaneously? In this situation when the right Chariot clips the Hydra and aligns to it, it would block the left Chariot's overrun. Couldn't find anything in the book about this at all!

Question #2 - the right Chariot clips the Hydra and aligns to it. Do the 2 Beastmasters jump out before the Chariot aligns to engage the max models? We played that they did.

Next weird question - High Elf mage was joined to a string of 10 Archers, standing in the middle of them. He left the unit later in the game, leaving a gap in the string of Archers. Do they just close the gap with a model from one of the edges or does it count as a reform? Do either or both of those count as moving?

- Blackbone

2) Yes, that seems right. Granted, the beastmasters can't be hurt...

3) Obviously the mage is moving. Yes, you fill in the gap with a guy from either end - this does not count as moving for the unit.

Still working on 1).

Question 1: How i'd have resolved it.
-combat resolution
-dark elf player fails leadership check
-i declare if i am pursuing with chariots: IE 1, both, etc
-dark elf player rolls
-I roll each chariot seperately as they are 2 units.
-compare my 2 rolls, to his roll.
-establish the directon of fleeing.
-both chariots move in a straight line along with line of fleeing.

-my thought is they both go at the same time. IE resolved at the same time as best as possible. If they are moving in a straight line, how does the pursuit roll of 1 effect the other?

According to the rules, you execute pursuit moves in US order, starting with the largest. In the case of ties, the controlling player decides which goes first. In 1) if it looks like one chariot is going to clip a new unit get in the way, move the other chariot first. Of course if one chariot has a character and the other doesn't, you must move the character first, as it has a higher US.

Any other input on Questions 2 and 3?

On 2 it makes sense to engage the max models despite how large the Hydra's flank is and how weird it is to link up the Beastmasters next to eachother at the closest end to the Chariot.

On 3 The closest supporting rule I see is how you fill in gaps in a block of troops, so I guess it would just be filled in from one of the outer edges of the line?

Thanks,

Blackbone

Missed the flank part on 2). Strictly speaking, it depends on where along the Hydra's flank the chariot hits. If the chariot hits at a point in which its front doesn't extend past the Hydra's base, then the Beastmasters hang out behind the Hydra. Other wise, form up one or two Beastmasters as needed.

2.) Well...you maximize BTB contact, regardless of where the chariot hits. If you barely clip one corner of the Hydra's base, you slide over to maximize the number of models in contact. In this case, I believe you would slide over to one corner so that the two Beastmasters could be lined up as well. Not that it matters, as Manfred said.

2) It doesn't matter from the high elf's point of view. If they can attack the hydra, they have to, even impact hits.
From the dark elf viewpoint, you want the beastmasters involved, as they can beat up on the high elf to their heart's desire with no fear of retribution as long as the hydra lives.
according to the rules, if you clip you wheel to get the most models in contact. There is no sliding to conform (we fudge the rule and just slide over, rather than worry about the wheel). If you wheel and cab reach a corner of the hydra, a beastmaster can join in. If it's a classic clip (with lots of overhang by the chariot) both beastmasters would join in.
I find it odd that with all the fuss over clipping in 6th ed (they had a whole appendix about it) they don;'t really address it in 7th. Who knows what they'll do in 8th? As simplistic as they're going, I wouldn't be surprised if all models in the front rank(s) fight, no matter how many are actually in contact.

Clipping was far less likely to occur in 7th, since they put in rules about maximizing models in contact. One of the biggest offenders in 6th was a Treeman charging a big block and going corner to corner so that only guy can fight it.

Overruns are counted as a new charge, therefore you MUST bring maximal models into contact as long as you have sufficient movement. NO SLIDING!

Not saying it's right, but many people slide even on overruns. As I've re-entered the hobby, I've generally accepted the conventions practiced by the large group of local tournament goers, and these guys slide like it's going out of style.

Again, not saying it's right, and not really interested in arguing about it- but pointing out that an answer here may not carry over to the reality of your local gaming scene.

RZ

I *hate* sliding, however that is a thought for another area - so you should look at the BRB FAQ Part 1, APPENDIX, if you want to know more about it

essentially the default is no sliding, unless both agree - so if you are in any doubt you should agree beforehand, just in case your area has an unwritten assumkption.

Thankfully that abomination isnt played around here....

Well, the FaQ states that sliding "is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules, but if both players agree to do this, the game will benefit in realism and fun" and that the "important thing to understand when you come across this sort of situation is that clipping is not in the spirit of the game and every effort should be made to avoid it."

Sliding can, of course, be abused (14 chaos warriors just barely clipping your unit and essentially getting 6" of free movement), but I think that clipping is potentially much more abuse-able. Wasn't a previous addition completely without sliding, resulting in big blocks of goblins going corner-to-corner with elite infantry, and thus, essentially, winning every combat thereafter?

Even worse is the tactical slide. Was playing against Ogres, and I thought I was clear of an overrun, but was just barely clipped.

As they play with the slide here, all of a sudden instead of fighting one maneater against my static 6 combat res, I was fighting 2 maneaters and a pair of bruisers. There was a third bruiser in the unit, but he was the BSB, and the player took the slide just enough to leave him out of the fight so he couldn't get targeted and beaten down.

Both ways have horrible abuses possible, and it seems to me that it's difficult to write something that completely prevents those abuses from happening.

RZ

Personally I've always been pretty harsh on long-range clipping and generous on short-range clipping. If you don't have enough movement to face a unit SQUARELY and still make contact, that's a failed charge. Your unit isn't going to charge off at an angle to clip the corner of an enemy unit just because that corner is a tiny bit closer and then magically make everyone in contact - or as many as you want in contact anyway - short of a spell cast by a wizard of some sort that says exactly that. So... clipping and sliding out at the extreme end of your charge range is a fail, sorry.

And yes, I use the same standards on my own charges, thank you very much.

Close in, a unit isn't going to just pivot in so one guy contacts the enemy and leaves the other guys on his flank hanging out doing nothing, they turn and charge in face-to-face. Short-range clipping is an artifact of the movement rules, and in that case sliding is the obvious easy fix.

Perhaps the best answer is to count sliding movement as part of your charge movement, and if you cannot maximize the number of models in contact with the slide, the charge fails?

Except that the rules for charging state that if a wheel means the charge fails you are not required to wheel.

But if you are going to slide (much preferable to clipping), you still have to slide so the most models ON BOTH SIDES are engaged. Think of the sliding as both units aligning themselves as the enemy approaches. Since it's the moving player's turn to move, his models are the ones who change their position on the tabletop. Ideally you'd measure how far the slide must be and move each unit half the distance, but that'd be too much of a hassle. Other games consider that units engaged count all models in the front rank, no matter how many are in actual BtB contact. GW has decided not to pursue this path, so we have to live with it.

WarpSolution - it is an *appendix* to the FAQ - please read the line on the appendix heading first.

Essentialy if you play by the appendix you should play by everything else as well - so anyone within 1" of a combat is "drawn into" the combat as well. And other syuch horrors.

The other point is it should not be the unconscious "default", as it *explicitly* requires *both* players to agree to change the rules.

Vulcan - except that goes atgainst the rules, so you need a houserule. In your "short range" clipping example the exisitng rules already cover this: if you overrun into a unit you treat it as a new charge in *every* way, so you *must* maximise models where you have the movement to do so.

Well, they say you should...but the FaQ is a collection of houserules anyway, so while GW may suggest we take an "all or nothing" stance, I think it would be reasonable to disagree.

Sure, it requires both players to agree. I dig it. But I'm not saying it should be the unconscious default. Just a conscious one. Until someone provides me with a better system than sliding (and by "better", I mean one that lends to the fun of the game).