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Well after a little thorough reading i have a question about whether or not a Chaos Lord with wings is able to embark or deploy in a rhino? Now i have read all about jump infantry not being able to in the rulebook but nothing about wings. So i moved onto the CSM codex and it states that they move like jump infantry nothing about counts as jump infantry. So is it just me that doesnt fully understand that for the purposes of wings they are jump infantry or is it just unclear and maybe answered by FAQs. Thanks and appreciate the help.

This is the same as hive tyrants with wings being able to deep strike as they also move like jump infantry. Raw wise it is really debateable.

Clear it up with your opponent first. I would say if you count your lord as bing able to deep strike then no he cannot ride in the rhino, if he can not deep strike then sure why not.

CSM faq states they are NOT ji and therefore can embark in a rhino

Nos is correct IIRC.

Cool thanks alot guys it was just one of those things i wanted to be sure of before ever seeing it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:CSM faq states they are NOT ji and therefore can embark in a rhino

Yup. It's a dumb ruling, but a clear one.

Yes, Nos is Correct. Wings allow you to MOVE as Jump Infantry, but you don't BECOME Jump Infantry, so a Lord with Wings can embark on a Rhino, but cannot Deep Strike.

Gwar! wrote:Yes, Nos is Correct. Wings allow you to MOVE as Jump Infantry, but you don't BECOME Jump Infantry, so a Lord with Wings can embark on a Rhino, but cannot Deep Strike.

Then why does it say in the codex that they can?

belial wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, Nos is Correct. Wings allow you to MOVE as Jump Infantry, but you don't BECOME Jump Infantry, so a Lord with Wings can embark on a Rhino, but cannot Deep Strike.

Then why does it say in the codex that they can?

Because I made a mistake! xD Models with Chaos Wings can Deep Strike because they have a special rule allowing them to do so. Models with Tyranid Wings cannot as they only allow you to move as Jump Infantry, and do not have a special rule allowing you to Deep Strike.

Gwar! wrote:

belial wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes, Nos is Correct. Wings allow you to MOVE as Jump Infantry, but you don't BECOME Jump Infantry, so a Lord with Wings can embark on a Rhino, but cannot Deep Strike.

Then why does it say in the codex that they can?

Because I made a mistake! xD Models with Chaos Wings can Deep Strike because they have a special rule allowing them to do so. Models with Tyranid Wings cannot as they only allow you to move as Jump Infantry, and do not have a special rule allowing you to Deep Strike.

Lol. Its ok, we are all allowed to make them!! I had a game with a 'nid player recently who got himself into a proper rage over this, started swearing at me and getting personal due to the fact that my wings can deepstrike and his couldn't .lol

belial wrote:Lol. Its ok, we are all allowed to make them!! I had a game with a 'nid player recently who got himself into a proper rage over this, started swearing at me and getting personal due to the fact that my wings can deepstrike and his couldn't .lol

And that's the difference between me and a lot of people, I can admit when I messed up!

But yeah, Models with wings in the nid codex cannot DS unless they are also actual Jump infantry.

Unless you read the rules and find that they can deep strike - an equally valid conclusion.

And how would you draw that conclusion MSP?

ChrisCP wrote:And how would you draw that conclusion MSP?

"Move as jump infantry" means exactly that; moves as Jump Infantry. Deep Striking is a move, which Jump Infantry can make; therefore, a model which "move[s] as Jump Infantry" can Deep Strike.

And to head off the chorus of "But if Deep Striking is a move, then scatter is messed up by movement constraints", the Deep Strike rules ("anywhere on the table") override the general movement restraints, as they deal with a more specific situation.

If Deep Striking is a move, then I assume that you take a Difficult Terrain test when you scatter then?

And no, they don't override anything. Nowhere do the Deep Strike rules say to ignore Difficult Terrain or other movement constraints, so if it is a move, Scatter is messed up by movement constraints.

You guys make my head hurt.... I enjoy the debate and banter though. You guys think of stuff that never really occurs to me until i read about it here.

Gwar! wrote:If Deep Striking is a move, then I assume that you take a Difficult Terrain test when you scatter then?

And no, they don't override anything. Nowhere do the Deep Strike rules say to ignore Difficult Terrain or other movement constraints, so if it is a move, Scatter is messed up by movement constraints.

If I land in Difficult Terrain after scatter, I certainly take a DT test. Taking DT tests while actually Scattering is in no way required. And yes, in fact, the Deep Strike rules DO override normal Movement restraints.

1. Deep Striking is a more specific case than general movement.

2. Deep Striking has its own rules, which in some cases conflict with the rules for general movement.

3. When two rules conflict, the more specific rule takes precedence.

4. Therefore, Deep Striking rules override Movement rules.


However, I do not wish to go over this argument AGAIN; it's been argued multiple times, and I see no resolution in sight or indeed possible, given how certain both of us are that we're right. So I'll stop arguing it now, since it won't accomplish anything.

ChrisCP wrote:And how would you draw that conclusion MSP?

In addition to what Berzerker said, the rules that allow Jump Infantry to deep strike are under the Jump Infantry Movement section, so I'd expect anything that moves as Jump Infantry to follow all the rules under Jump Infantry Movement.

Deepstrike is a type of deployment, not a type of movement, so while the JI Movement rules allow deepstriking this is irrelevant to moving like JI.

BTW there is a good reason Wings only make you "move like JI", do yo ureally want your MC to Become JI instead?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Deepstrike is a type of deployment, not a type of movement, so while the JI Movement rules allow deepstriking this is irrelevant to moving like JI.

BTW there is a good reason Wings only make you "move like JI", do yo ureally want your MC to Become JI instead?

That's the entire argument. They don't become jump infantry. They move like jump infantry. Let's say I'm a new player and I picked up the new Nid Codex to start playing. Hey, it says that if I give my Hive Tyrant wings, it can move like jump infantry.

*flips to the page about jump infantry*

*thumbs down to the movement section*

*Sees that, written under movement, that they can deep strike. Whether deep strike is deployment or movement doesn't matter. A unit with the ability to move like jump infantry follows the movement text under the jump infantry heading.*

Is a Drop Pod moving at Cruising Speed when it lands? Yep. Is it actually moving? Nope. It moved 0" at Cruising Speed.

Can a hive tyrant with wings deep strike? Yep. Is it jump infantry? Nope. It is allowed to follow the rules laid about by jump infantry, just like the drop pod follows the rules laid out by vehicles moving at cruising speed. It's the "As if" clause that makes all this magic happen.

Hey, we might as well bring up the old tank shocking from reserves again too.

Is it movement or deployment.

Discuss.