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I've decided to try a bold move and attempt an eldar foot infantry list for the nationwide tournament. Despite the negative image toward this "squishy" build, I feel it has potential if played right. To sum up, most of the units, with the exception of harlequins, will be screened by the concealed guardians. With the Avatar sitting directly in the middle, all units surrounding will become fearless. Wraithlords stay close to the screen, as they are being guided by the upgraded spiritseer warlock. Eldrad fortunes the guardian screen and Avatar until the units are close enough to use alternative powers. Rangers are primarily there to hold an objective. Inflitrate close to the objective, sit behind cover, and if the enemy wants to shoot them, so be it. Although the strategy behind this list is completely dependent on the context, it plays similar against almost every type of army. I think it has a good range of diversity so that it can react to most situations. Let me know what you think, I'm open to ideas.


HQ:

Eldrad Ulthran +210

The Avatar of Khaine +155


ELITES:

Fire Dragons (6) +96

Harlequin Troupe (7) - Shadowseer, harlequin's kiss for each model +184


TROOPS:

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Guardians (19) - Shuriken cannon, warlock, singing spear, spiritseer, conceal +206

Rangers (5) +95


HEAVY SUPPORT:

Wraithlord - brightlance, missile launcher +155

Wraithlord - brightlance, missile launcher +155

Wraithlord - wraithsword, shuriken cannon +110


TOTAL POINTS: 1750

Oldblood wrote:I've decided to try a bold move and attempt an eldar foot infantry list for the nationwide tournament. Despite the negative image toward this "squishy" build, I feel it has potential if played right. To sum up, most of the units, with the exception of harlequins, will be screened by the concealed guardians. With the Avatar sitting directly in the middle, all units surrounding will become fearless. Wraithlords stay close to the screen, as they are being guided by the upgraded spiritseer warlock. Eldrad fortunes the guardian screen and Avatar until the units are close enough to use alternative powers. Rangers are primarily there to hold an objective. Inflitrate close to the objective, sit behind cover, and if the enemy wants to shoot them, so be it. Although the strategy behind this list is completely dependent on the context, it plays similar against almost every type of army. I think it has a good range of diversity so that it can react to most situations. Let me know what you think, I'm open to ideas.


HQ:

Eldrad Ulthran +210

The Avatar of Khaine +155


ELITES:

Fire Dragons (6) +96

Harlequin Troupe (7) - Shadowseer, harlequin's kiss for each model +184


TROOPS:

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Dire Avengers (8) +96

Guardians (19) - Shuriken cannon, warlock, singing spear, spiritseer, conceal +206

Rangers (5) +95


HEAVY SUPPORT:

Wraithlord - brightlance, missile launcher +155

Wraithlord - brightlance, missile launcher +155

Wraithlord - wraithsword, shuriken cannon +110


TOTAL POINTS: 1750

I know, I know, you've heard this before but:

That guardian squad, with only a 5+ save, you will be easily killed down, then wraithsight kicks in, then you lose.

Drop the cannon on the third Wraithlord. Running him during the shooting phase > 3 shots s6.

For an avatar list Defender Guardians > Dire Avengers. 4 packs of guardians with scatters will do a lot more for you then 5 packs of DA.

The big issue with the list will be anti-tank. You have 2 wraithlords with 2 shots per at BS 2, in my experiance it is not to be banked on and your fire dragons will never even get a chance to fire if you opponent has half a brain. They are painted like a traffic cone for a reason...

BlueDagger wrote:Drop the cannon on the third Wraithlord. Running him during the shooting phase > 3 shots s6.

For an avatar list Defender Guardians > Dire Avengers. 4 packs of guardians with scatters will do a lot more for you then 5 packs of DA.

The big issue with the list will be anti-tank. You have 2 wraithlords with 2 shots per at BS 2, in my experiance it is not to be banked on and your fire dragons will never even get a chance to fire if you opponent has half a brain. They are painted like a traffic cone for a reason...

Yup, though thry are BS 4. Im sure it was just a typo.

traffic cone!

lol yeah that was a typo, though it feels like BS2 half the time lol.

It sucks bigtime. It will do OK against armies that are specialized against tanks only, i.e. it will do well against really weak armies that don't have appropriate versatility.

What really owns this list is its sheer lack of mobility. Mech lists will control the battlefield, and you won't be able to stop them with your relatively minor anti-tank threats. He who controls the battlefield controls the game, and that is why footdar are such a losing choice. That, and the fact that all your Troops choices can be gunned down without a prayer of survival.

If you want to win, go mech. 5th ed punches you in the balls for not going mech. If you like ball-punched gimp lists then stick with this one, otherwise, forget about it.

I think a wall of wraithguard is still very viable if you back it up with a counter assault unit and the avatar.

Wraithwall is kinda viable. Worth a try if you really *must* play a foot list. I don't think it's as good as mech because it lacks mobility, and because there are ways to negate the army's toughness, i.e. snipers, poisoned attacks, S10, power fists. But it will do really well against many lists.

Try dropping the guardians and a couple DA and get a troop wraithguard unit, and use it to screen everything else.

If you want to go Wraithzilla, I've already got a list written up, form my thread on eldar (used to be footdar, then realised they're just too fragile for their points).

Here it is:
Eldrad - 210
Avatar - 155
Wraithlord - Bright lance, Eldar missile launcher - 155
Wraithlord - Bright lance, Eldar missile launcher - 155
Wraithlord - Bright lance, Eldar missile launcher - 155
7 Harlequins with shadowseer - 7 kisses - 184
10 Wraithguard - Spiritseer, conceal - 396
10 Wraithguard - Spiritseer, conceal - 396
5 Rangers - 95
5 Rangers - 95

This is 1996 points.

Hope this helps, in one way or another.

S_P

Only thing I would do is change those rangers into 5 fire dragons in a serpent with TL-shuricannons and spirit stones.

With the changes to 5th edition and the screening of the wraithguard, I think the wraithsword is worthwhile.

Grignard wrote:With the changes to 5th edition and the screening of the wraithguard, I think the wraithsword is worthwhile.

Say it a third time, lol. Still doesn't make screening with an incredibly expensive unit a good idea (Opponent: "4+ cover save for infantry if I shoot from the front and don't move to flank at all?! oh noes") screening is failgasmic against any decently fast army, this includes transports. Also, wraithswords are always a terrible option, WL's only have 2 attacks base that means that the wraithsowrd (at the cost of a gun slot!) will hit MEQ's in combat an average of 1.5 times instead of 1, and produce 1.25 wounds as compared to 0.8, this tiny difference is never worth the loss of a gun; all WL's should have EML's and BL's by the way, as they are your only reliable antitank.

Anyways, problems with the original list include its terrible lack of anti armour, its over reliance on dire avengers to kill everything that isn't a tank and its terrible need to be all grouped up together, this leaves you very vulnerable to any army that doesn't do exactly what you want them to do (ie shoot from the front). I shudder when I think about what 2 Manticores would do to this list. How does this list deal with mech armies? It can't even get them out of their transports. How does this list deal with any Monstrous Creatures at range? How does it even touch a Mechdar army? How does it not get shot off the board by Guard, Space Marines and Tau?

This army will only rarely, rarely, work the way you imagine it will as people will either shoot your screen to death, shoot through your screen with weight of fire, avoid your front and flank you, or assault the gak out of you. Most likely a combination of these.

Foldalot wrote:

Grignard wrote:With the changes to 5th edition and the screening of the wraithguard, I think the wraithsword is worthwhile.

Say it a third time, lol. Still doesn't make screening with an incredibly expensive unit a good idea (Opponent: "4+ cover save for infantry if I shoot from the front and don't move to flank at all?! oh noes") screening is failgasmic against any decently fast army, this includes transports. Also, wraithswords are always a terrible option, WL's only have 2 attacks base that means that the wraithsowrd (at the cost of a gun slot!) will hit MEQ's in combat an average of 1.5 times instead of 1, and produce 1.25 wounds as compared to 0.8, this tiny difference is never worth the loss of a gun; all WL's should have EML's and BL's by the way, as they are your only reliable antitank.

Anyways, problems with the original list include its terrible lack of anti armour, its over reliance on dire avengers to kill everything that isn't a tank and its terrible need to be all grouped up together, this leaves you very vulnerable to any army that doesn't do exactly what you want them to do (ie shoot from the front). I shudder when I think about what 2 Manticores would do to this list. How does this list deal with mech armies? It can't even get them out of their transports. How does this list deal with any Monstrous Creatures at range? How does it even touch a Mechdar army? How does it not get shot off the board by Guard, Space Marines and Tau?

This army will only rarely, rarely, work the way you imagine it will as people will either shoot your screen to death, shoot through your screen with weight of fire, avoid your front and flank you, or assault the gak out of you. Most likely a combination of these.

I disagree, as it usually seems to work just fine for me. Furthermore, a wraithsword just looks cool on the model. For what it is worth, one of my regular opponents has refused to play me anymore with my list because he perceives it as unfair.

If you're only going to attack MEQ with the sword, then I'd see that, but you're not. You're still going to have the bright lance as your other weapon. For what it is worth, I still take another wraithlord with BL/EML. Are you really more bunched up than any other list? You can spread out the wraithguard screen pretty far, and when combined with Fortune and conceal it is pretty resilient. The point of it being eaten up in assault can be mitigated by a good counter assault unit.

Of course you don't *just* run guys behind the screen. You have to support it with units that don't operate behind the screen, like a mech dragons unit, scorps, rangers, etc. My list is different than the pure footdar presented.

I disagree, as it usually seems to work just fine for me. Furthermore, a wraithsword just looks cool on the model. For what it is worth, one of my regular opponents has refused to play me anymore with my list because he perceives it as unfair.

Really?

Then he must have a fail list. I mean heavy flamers would have a field day against this list. Against any mech they'll be able to totally dictate the battle to you. You can't go ninja (due to lack of mobility) so against an alphastrike army you basically auto-lose if you go 2nd (imagine getting hit in the face by 7 heavy flamers in turn 1 and then assaulted by SM Scouts throwing out 4 S4 attacks each, plus their boltpistol shots).

Footdar don't work in 5th Ed, as others have said mobility is King. In a game where most poeple can assault you on turn 1 or hit you with pretty ludicrous alphastrikes you need mobility and you need to have the option to either go totally are largely ninja.

Grignard, anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. If you take a BL/EML over a BL/WS you gain double your antitank firepower (against most targets) and gain some non trivial anti infantry fire power at long range, and in return you lose 0.5 hits on average in a combat. A worthy trade I think. The Eldar- more so than lots of other armies- rely on their heavy support to provide the mainstay of their ranged antitank, if you don't take anti tank in your heavy support for Eldar then you have to scrounge up enough BL/EML's over less cost effective units across the rest of your army.

Footdar don't work in 5th Ed, as others have said mobility is King. In a game where most poeple can assault you on turn 1 or hit you with pretty ludicrous alphastrikes you need mobility

I agree with Flingitnow; by relying on a (frail) screening unit to protect your army you naturally limit your movement possibilities, and a canny opponent will find many ways to exploit this. Also, how do you go after multiple spaced out objectives? You will have to break the 'screen' and then cop a lot of firepower on your T3 models, or stay huddled up and just go after a single objective (or 2 close together), neither of which are good things.

Lol screening. I feel like I'm back in 3rd edition with meatshielding.

The only kind of unit that works in conjunction with Wraithguard are units that are similarly hard to kill. Enemies will never pour fire into your WG if they have much better targets, "screen" or not. Anything in a wraithwall that isn't a wraithguard or monstrous creature had better be a:

1) VoT Harlequin unit which can't be shot from far away

2) Ranger/Pathfinder unit with ridiculous cover saves that make it not worth bothering

3) Unit inside a waveserpent that can't be shot directly; or

4) Maaaaybe a jetbike, which is fast enough and tough enough to survive a little shooting and avoid areas where the heat is likely to get poured on too thick.

Foldalot wrote:Grignard, anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all. If you take a BL/EML over a BL/WS you gain double your antitank firepower (against most targets) and gain some non trivial anti infantry fire power at long range, and in return you lose 0.5 hits on average in a combat. A worthy trade I think. The Eldar- more so than lots of other armies- rely on their heavy support to provide the mainstay of their ranged antitank, if you don't take anti tank in your heavy support for Eldar then you have to scrounge up enough BL/EML's over less cost effective units across the rest of your army.

Footdar don't work in 5th Ed, as others have said mobility is King. In a game where most poeple can assault you on turn 1 or hit you with pretty ludicrous alphastrikes you need mobility

I agree with Flingitnow; by relying on a (frail) screening unit to protect your army you naturally limit your movement possibilities, and a canny opponent will find many ways to exploit this. Also, how do you go after multiple spaced out objectives? You will have to break the 'screen' and then cop a lot of firepower on your T3 models, or stay huddled up and just go after a single objective (or 2 close together), neither of which are good things.

I'm not trying to build evidence against your case, I was just suggesting a list that works well for me and looks great. I've won a lot of games with it, and sure, that is anecdotal, but so is anything that isn't an argument based on mathematics. I've been able to get to multiple objectives by breaking off and fleeting once I've softened my opponent up a bit.

I'm not seeing how you double your antitank with a BL/EML combo over the WS though. I mean, I don't consider an EML a antitank weapon. Now if you could take two BL instead of twin linked, I would definitely see it. Regardless, I was just passing on what worked for me, as the OP didn't ask for "evidence". If he had, I could have run the math on to wound and save rolls on fortuned wraithguard or fortuned units behind them. Doesn't matter, I'm not arguing it with you. There is too much arguing on this board as is.

Grignard wrote: I'm not seeing how you double your antitank with a BL/EML combo over the WS though. I mean, I don't consider an EML a antitank weapon. Now if you could take two BL instead of twin linked, I would definitely see it

Two strength 8 guns is twice as effective as one strength 8 gun. (Not so against armour 13/14 due to lance obviously)

I can't believe I had to explain this. Yes the EML is great against infantry too, it doesn't mean it's not as good as a BL at popping the vast majority of tanks.

I'm not calling into question that your list works well but I am suggesting if you made certain alterations it would work even better for you. Also, don't confuse discussion with arguements. If someone posts something silly then I hope it gets refuted. You raise a good point about fortune, but remember people will just always shoot the units without fortune on them (or shoot them with guns that ignore the saves altogether, and with the armies low mobility it is hard to force an opponents hand- they will get to choose which infantry blocks to shoot as nothing can pose a pressing threat.

I'd recommend giving a battle report summary after this tourney to see how this army fared. Can this list table other armies: most likely not. Can it pull out wins: sure, but any mistakes are going to be very costly. Sitting against armies like mech IG are going to be punishing as they can spend multiple turns hitting you at range with little/no return fire.

The list is a bit gimped in 5th edition. What this means is you have to completely outplay your opponent.

Foldalot wrote:

Grignard wrote: I'm not seeing how you double your antitank with a BL/EML combo over the WS though. I mean, I don't consider an EML a antitank weapon. Now if you could take two BL instead of twin linked, I would definitely see it

Two strength 8 guns is twice as effective as one strength 8 gun. (Not so against armour 13/14 due to lance obviously)

I can't believe I had to explain this. Yes the EML is great against infantry too, it doesn't mean it's not as good as a BL at popping the vast majority of tanks.

I'm not calling into question that your list works well but I am suggesting if you made certain alterations it would work even better for you. Also, don't confuse discussion with arguements. If someone posts something silly then I hope it gets refuted. You raise a good point about fortune, but remember people will just always shoot the units without fortune on them (or shoot them with guns that ignore the saves altogether, and with the armies low mobility it is hard to force an opponents hand- they will get to choose which infantry blocks to shoot as nothing can pose a pressing threat.

Alright, fair enough. I'm definitely as open to the OP to constructive criticism. You're correct that two strength 8 guns is obviously twice as much strength 8 as one str 8 gun. I have also noticed that the EML is definitely a nice anti-infantry weapon, and it can pin. I suppose I'm used to going against land raiders with 14 armor, so I'm not used to a EML being very effective against armor. I realize you can pop transports just as effectively. I do carry a WL with BL/EML. You would be suprised how many people continue to shoot at those wraithguard. I massacred the eventual winner at 'ard boys this year because of that. I can usually fortune the infantry behind because the "hard" units seem to do ok. I also supplement this with units that operate outside the screen.

I agree that a pure footdar army is going to have trouble crossing the board. I should probably take this opportunity to post my list later once I get home from work if I'm going to talk about lists. Note that I have only gotten this to work really well in 2000 point or higher games because the wraithguard eat up so much points. I've done ok at 1500 though.