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this might already have been answered but i can't find it. if a model has both boneswords and toxin sacs does he have to choose which one he is using or do they stack e.g

1.bonesword wound on strength versus toughness no armour saves allowed.
2.boneswords wound on 4+ due to toxin sacs reroll if toughness equal or lower no armour saves allowed
3.wound on 4+ due to toxin sacs reroll if toughness equal or lower saves as normal

please help

2 I believe, but not played my 'Nids in a while.

They stack, as neither are close combat weapons.

Page 33: Tyranids NEVER use CCW.

Definetly 2.

To quote my unofficial Nid FAQ:

TYR.83.01 – Q: Do Tyranid models with more than one close combat weapon biomorph have to choose which one to benefit from each turn or do they always benefit from their effects?
A: Tyranid models armed with more than one close combat weapon biomorph have attacks that always benefit from every close combat weapon biomorph they have. This is because, as per page 33, “Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons”. Furthermore, each close combat weapon biomorph has wording that makes it clear that the Tyranid themselves has the effect, not the weapon. For example, “Crushing Claws” states “A Tyranid with crushing claws gains” as opposed to “A Tyranid using crushing claws gains”. This essentially means that the close combat weapon biomorphs “stack”, so, for example, a model with “Scything Talons” and “Rending Claws” will benefit from both the re-roll effect and the “Rending” effect with each of it's attacks. [Clarification]

and

TYR.84.11 – Q: How do Tyranid biomorph upgrades interact with each other and Tyranid close combat weapon biomorphs?
A: In all cases, every affect applicable applies. [R.a.W]
• For example, a Tyranid Prime is equipped with “Scything Talons”, “Rending Claws” and “Toxin Sacs”. Every attack this model makes against a non-vehicle model will re-roll any rolls of 1 to hit, wound on a 4+ (with a re-roll if the enemy model(s) is/are Toughness 5 or less) and ignore Armour Saves on a roll of 6 to wound. Against Vehicles, it will re-roll any rolls of 1 to hit, roll Strength plus D6 for Armour penetration (as poisoned weapons do not have any effect against Vehicles) and gain a bonus D3 to Armour Penetration should a roll of 6 be made for the Armour penetration roll.

thanks for answers folks. especially gwar who i think answered with option 2. love to see full unoffical nid faq.
while ive got you a quick change of tact when tervigon births do you move gaunts first or are you still assumed to be moving tervigon

khsofsos wrote:thanks for answers folks. especially gwar who i think answered with option 2. love to see full unoffical nid faq.
while ive got you a quick change of tact when tervigon births do you move gaunts first or are you still assumed to be moving tervigon

For a "Full" Unofficial FAQ, check the link in my Sig. Tons of Q's there, though it does need some work!

As for the Tervigon, Spawning Gants is NOT part of the Tervigons movement. It is a separate action that must be done BEFORE the Tervigon moves. So, once you Spawn, you can now choose to move either the Gants first, then move the Tervigon, or move the Tervigon first and then move the Gants.

I'm also of the stacking side of the arguement.

again thanks all. will defiantly be checking out the link gwar cheers

Keep in mind also that MC's with toxins wound on 4+ also even on lower T enemies.

For instance, a Tervigon would wound a t3 Eldar on 4+ with toxins as opposed to a 2+ without toxins.

Yeah but they get to re-roll to wound. Though mathematically, it only helps if you are equal or 1 higher Strength vs Toughness. If you are two points higher (e.g. S5 vs T3, S6 vs T4) you are mathematically better off NOT being poisoned!

Gwar! wrote:Yeah but they get to re-roll to wound. Though mathematically, it only helps if you are equal or 1 higher Strength vs Toughness. If you are two points higher (e.g. S5 vs T3, S6 vs T4) you are mathematically better off NOT being poisoned!

Unless you have noxious touch, which seems redundant, but fun.

Gwar! wrote:To quote my unofficial Nid FAQ:

TYR.83.01 – Q: Do Tyranid models with more than one close combat weapon biomorph have to choose which one to benefit from each turn or do they always benefit from their effects?
A: Tyranid models armed with more than one close combat weapon biomorph have attacks that always benefit from every close combat weapon biomorph they have. This is because, as per page 33, “Tyranids do not wield close combat weapons”. Furthermore, each close combat weapon biomorph has wording that makes it clear that the Tyranid themselves has the effect, not the weapon. For example, “Crushing Claws” states “A Tyranid with crushing claws gains” as opposed to “A Tyranid using crushing claws gains”. This essentially means that the close combat weapon biomorphs “stack”, so, for example, a model with “Scything Talons” and “Rending Claws” will benefit from both the re-roll effect and the “Rending” effect with each of it's attacks. [Clarification]

Sorry to drag this back up, but I see people quoting part of page 33 and it just annoys me. The full text is this:
Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash at their opponents with their own teeth, claws and talons. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon – theses bonuses are always included in the creatures profile.

So it's basically fluff / rules . Look at the underlined section again. It mentions close combat weapons. How can people say they don't actually use close combat weapons? This paragraph just tells you that you don't get the bonus (+1 attack) for fighting with more than one close combat weapon.

Still don't believe that they use close combat weapons? Look on page 83. The section is labeld CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS. Look at the Claws and Teeth entry. Models with claws and teeth count as having a normal close combat weapon.

As for GWAR's second point, "Furthermore, each close combat weapon biomorph has wording that makes it clear that the Tyranid themselves has the effect, not the weapon." I direct you to the power weapon entry in the main rulebook. Doesn't that have similar wording - the model does the damage not the weapon?

Now, toxin sacs is a bit different because it's in the BIOMORPH UPGRADES section. It specifically says, "As detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." Look back in the rulebook and tell me where you find the Poison rules. Right, they're in the special close combat section. The same section that has power weapons, power fists, thunderhammers, witchblades (that are not poisoned ). That's the same section that says special weapons do not stack with each other.

Ultimately it comes down GW really needs to FAQ this. People will (and have) talked about it too much. Either dice it off with your opponent or don't stack the options (giving your opponent the result that benefits them).

I just wanted to point out that GWAR was using only part of page 33, to incorrectly justify his decision.

So you discount the first bit as fluff, but not the second part? The partt which says AS A RESULT - implying the first bit is rules?

Sigh.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you discount the first bit as fluff, but not the second part? The partt which says AS A RESULT - implying the first bit is rules?

Sigh.

Pretty much this. If the first part is fluff, then the 2nd part is too, since it is as a result of it.

Actually, Biomorphs and CCWs in the Nid dex are both worded the same. Models with X gain Y effect. The Nid codex also never mentions anything to be "counts as power weapon" or anything of the sort EXCEPT for claws and teeth. These "count as close combat weapons" and are only for nids that do not have any other weapons to stack.

Going back to the part about toxin sacs referring back to the rulebook. No weapons in the Nid Codex refer you to rules on how to use them. The IG Codex (by the exact same author in the same edition) refers you to the rulebook on how to use each weapon. The Space Marine codex does the same. Why doesn't the Nid codex do this? The only logical reason is that they don't follow the normal rules for CCW since there is no reference on how to use them as there is for the other codex from the same author.

It's not just a case of leaving it out once. The author leaves it out of EVERY description in the nid codex and puts it in EVERY applicable weapon in the IG codex. The only item that doesn't have this I have found was Marbo's knife. It simply states that all CC attacks are poison. To me, this means that Marbo has no say on how he attacks in CC. Everything is poison even if there was a chance to do better without poison. It affects every attack. Nowhere does it say Marbo's knife counts as a close combat weapon. Therefore you can't say it is a CCW. It is simply an adjustment that grants poison. He gains poison in every attack. He doesn't choose to use it, it simply happens.

The same description is used for rending claws and scytals. The nid codex states that all CC attacks gain X USR depending on the weapons you have. If you have rending claws, you gain rending. If you have Scytals, you gain rerolls. If you have both, you gain both.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you discount the first bit as fluff, but not the second part? The partt which says AS A RESULT - implying the first bit is rules?

Sigh.

Okay, you want to call it rules/rules, that's fine. It still doesn't change my position that Tyranids have and use close combat weapons. How do you resolve a model with 2 special close combat weapons? The rulebook covers that and the Tyranid codex does not override that anywhere.

By the way, it is possible to have fluff/rules. Isn't it possible to have this: Eldar Fire Prism pilots are more skilled, as a result they are BS 4. fluff / rules or description / rules effect is the same thing from my point of view.

Of course, they use claws and teeth. No need to override that.

ryan3740 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you discount the first bit as fluff, but not the second part? The partt which says AS A RESULT - implying the first bit is rules?

Sigh.

Okay, you want to call it rules/rules, that's fine. It still doesn't change my position that Tyranids have and use close combat weapons. How do you resolve a model with 2 special close combat weapons? The rulebook covers that and the Tyranid codex does not override that anywhere.

Yes, they use their claws and teeth. These are the only Close Combat Weapons they use.

Everything else just changes how their Close Combat Weapons work, it doesn't give them more CCW.

ryan3740 wrote:It still doesn't change my position that Tyranids have and use close combat weapons.

So... the 5th edition Tyranid Codex has wargear options that do nothing? That come as standard? That's your position?

First entry in the army list is a Hive Tyrant, which comes with a Lash Whip and Bonesword and Scything Talons. If they are all special weapons, it must choose one at the start of a combat round.

The Lash Whip is always useless. Always.

The Tyrant has higher Initiative? It strikes first.
The Tyrant is matched on Initiative? It and it's opponent strike simultaneously, then the Lash Whip takes effect and does nothing.
The Tyrant has lower Inititative? It strikes last, then then the Lash Whip takes effect and does nothing.

Luckily, a Tyrant can switch it's Lash Whip and Bonesword for a second set of Scything Talons, for free! Oh, but wait - they're special weapons, right? So it has to choose one, and Scything Talons don't specifically say you can use two sets, even though two sets provide an additional benefit.

Oh, and Tyranid Toxin Sacs aren't a weapon, they're a Biomorph Upgrade.

ryan3740 wrote:Okay, you want to call it rules/rules, that's fine. It still doesn't change my position that Tyranids have and use close combat weapons. How do you resolve a model with 2 special close combat weapons? The rulebook covers that and the Tyranid codex does not override that anywhere.

So you ignore the rule stating they do not use close combat weapons to assert that they use close combat weapons? Oddly this makes your conclusion fairly pointless..

ryan3740 wrote:By the way, it is possible to have fluff/rules. Isn't it possible to have this: Eldar Fire Prism pilots are more skilled, as a result they are BS 4. fluff / rules or description / rules effect is the same thing from my point of view.

Except in this case it IS rules as it has an ingame effect using ingame terms: they do not use close combat weapons. This is NOT fluff.

Yeah all abilities stack. Otherwise, as stated by forkbanger, what would be the point of 2 pairs of scything talons?

Look at the full line again:
Tyranid creatures do not wield close combat weapons as such, but rather slash at their opponents with their own teeth, claws and talons. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus Attacks for fighting with more than one close combat weapon – theses bonuses are always included in the creatures profile.

What does these two sentences say? Tyranid models do not get +1 attack for fighting with more than one close combat weapon. Why do I say +1 attack? What other bonus is always included in the creatures profile?

In the last codex there was a sentence that specifically stated that tyranids got the benefit from all close combat weapons and they did not have to chose. There is no such line in this codex.

Lukus83 wrote:Yeah all abilities stack. Otherwise, as stated by forkbanger, what would be the point of 2 pairs of scything talons?

2 pairs of scything talons has an effect that is specifically stated in the rulebook. It is not stacking, it's treating 1 set of scything talons as a special close combat weapon with the effect of re-rolling 1's for miss To Hit rolls. In the same entry, it treats 2 sets of scything talons as a different special close combat weapon with the effect of re-rolling all miss To Hit rolls.

forkbanger wrote:So... the 5th edition Tyranid Codex has wargear options that do nothing? That come as standard? That's your position?

Yes, if you're referring to claws and teeth. Not sure what else you could be referring to. I admit that Lashwhips do not work without stacking. I can see lash whips stack because it effects all enemy models in base contact and not the creature weilding it.

forkbanger wrote:Oh, and Tyranid Toxin Sacs aren't a weapon, they're a Biomorph Upgrade.

I'm aware of what section they are in. Now please go back and read the paragraph on what counts as a special close combat weapon. Notice that it says the most common types are listed below. Now please tell me where the poison ability is located. Still think they're not a weapon? Please tell me why, other than "they're in the biomorph upgrade." How is what they do not described by the special close combat weapons section or the poison weapons section?

So you still ignore the first rule, and base the rest of your argument on that ignorance?

fail.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you discount the first bit as fluff, but not the second part? The partt which says AS A RESULT - implying the first bit is rules?

it says:
Tyranids do not use close combat weapons, so they do not recieve bonuses for fighting with more than one close combat weapon (they are actually fighting with zero)

lets use the same sentence with words replaced shall we?

Tyranid creatures do not have "jetpacks" as such, but jump and bound. As a result, Tyranid models never receive bonus "movement" for "jetpacks" – theses bonuses are always included in the creatures profile.

and your followup argument is that tyranids do infact have "jetpacks", and should use the rules for "jetpacks", even though it specifically states otherwise, and then gives an example of otherwise?

seriously?

also, the poison ignoring normal wounding is news to me, I will have to reread that section, i was under the impression that you wound on 4+, or get a reroll if you would normally wound on a 4+ or better, not you always wound on 4+ /period/ and get the reroll otherwise.

Huh? No, i say they do not use ccw, therefore rules which require them to choose what special CCW to use are irrelevant - they can never apply as a tyranid never uses them.

I think you meant to quote ryan maybe?

Grundz wrote:also, the poison ignoring normal wounding is news to me, I will have to reread that section, i was under the impression that you wound on 4+, or get a reroll if you would normally wound on a 4+ or better, not you always wound on 4+ /period/ and get the reroll otherwise.

It's not by virtue of the Poison rule, it's because Poison Sacs do not say they are optional.

You ALWAYS use them, so you ALWAYS wound on a 4+ (with a reroll if applicable), even if you would wound on a 2+ (which is mathematically better than 4+ with a RR).

yeah nos i quoted you quoting him, ment to just quote him

Tyranids never use any ccw, all weapons and biomoprphs are passive upgrades that all stack.

a model with x gains y.