Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does DL -d3 to leadership affect Mephiston?

G

Does Deathleaper's rule affect IC's or just "an enemy model".

If it's just IC's, then no.
If it's "an enemy model", then yes.

No it does not. Deathleaper's ability tells you to "nominate a single enemy character," and character is defined on page 47 of the BRB as an Independent Character or Upgrade character.

Since Mephiston is neither, Deathleaper's ability does not affect him.

Xca|iber wrote:No it does not. Deathleaper's ability tells you to "nominate a single enemy character," and character is defined on page 47 of the BRB as an Independent Character or Upgrade character.

Since Mephiston is neither, Deathleaper's ability does not affect him.

This.

Mephiston is a unit of 1 model. He is neither a Independent Character nor an Upgrade Character. Therefore, Deathleapers ability cannot affect him.

He can affect non-DC Tycho though, and since Tychos' Rites of Battle is NOT optional, the whole army suddenly becomes Ld7.

I agree with you Gwar but there is this hairy jackape at my store that claims Mephiston is a special character since he is named and this counts as being a character.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you Gwar but there is this hairy jackape at my store that claims Mephiston is a special character since he is named and this counts as being a character.

G

Show him in the rulebook where it says there are only 2 types of Characters, Upgrade Characters and Independent Characters. I bet he wouldn't be making a fuss if it was Marbo would he.

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you Gwar but there is this hairy jackape at my store that claims Mephiston is a special character since he is named and this counts as being a character.

G

Mephiston is no more a special character than a Land Raider is.

Gwar I pointed this out be he is admanant.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I pointed this out be he is admanant.

G

Then there is not much you can do. If he won't listen to the rules in the rulebook, what can you do?!

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I pointed this out be he is admanant.

G

Tell him to Stand and Deliver then!

Gwar! wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you Gwar but there is this hairy jackape at my store that claims Mephiston is a special character since he is named and this counts as being a character.

G

Show him in the rulebook where it says there are only 2 types of Characters, Upgrade Characters and Independent Characters. I bet he wouldn't be making a fuss if it was Marbo would he.

(That'd be page 47.) See also the section on page 49, which notes that "Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters...."

Instruct said player to dump Deathleaper, and bring the Swarmlord w/some Lash Whip buddies. Mephiston won't come too close anymore, or at least not more than once. Large numbers of poisoned stealers work pretty well, too.

I brought up the point about upgrade and independent characters as well. The problem is he is a bully and other players dont want to ruffle his feathers. I told him to stick it where the sun dont shine though.

G

Gwar! wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I pointed this out be he is admanant.

G

Then there is not much you can do. If he won't listen to the rules in the rulebook, what can you do?!

You can play against the rules like him, and take 6 Mephistons!

Black Blow Fly wrote:I brought up the point about upgrade and independent characters as well. The problem is he is a bully and other players dont want to ruffle his feathers. I told him to stick it where the sun dont shine though.

G

Just get the other players not to play him anymore!

Yea, just keep calling him Edward...or... Sparkles in the Sunlight.

OHHH, just keep it at Sparkles...

If Edward were anywhere near as awesome as Mephiston. I wouldn't have mind being dragged by my girlfriend to see those terrible movies.

New movie this summer, Blood Angels: Sparkle This!

Janthkin wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I agree with you Gwar but there is this hairy jackape at my store that claims Mephiston is a special character since he is named and this counts as being a character.

G

Show him in the rulebook where it says there are only 2 types of Characters, Upgrade Characters and Independent Characters. I bet he wouldn't be making a fuss if it was Marbo would he.

(That'd be page 47.) See also the section on page 49, which notes that "Special characters can be either independent or upgrade characters...."

I know that we're not talking about RAI here. But I would think RAI would be that he is affected. He is a "unique" unit and the only place that "unique" units are described is Characters and Special Characters. So, simply by him being Unique and the only place him being described is the Characters section, I would say that that gives him a good reason to be a "character", since it describes everything about characters: how they're named (and don't bring up "Assault Marine" could be the guy's proper name, Gwar!, that's ridiculous and you know it), what they've done, etc. It even goes to describe how Commissar Yarrick and Kharn the Betrayer perform feats to distinguish themselves among great characters. Yet Mephiston is just some old librarian.

RAW, no, he probably isn't affected.

RAI, I would think so.

Side note: He also doesn't have Move Through Cover. Not a big deal, but if they're using it, then they shouldn't be.

UltraPrime wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Gwar I pointed this out be he is admanant.

G

Tell him to Stand and Deliver then!

Made my day.

puma713 wrote:I know that we're not talking about RAI here. But I would think RAI would be that he is affected. He is a "unique" unit and the only place that "unique" units are described is Characters and Special Characters. So, simply by him being Unique and the only place him being described is the Characters section, I would say that that gives him a good reason to be a "character", since it describes everything about characters: how they're named (and don't bring up "Assault Marine" could be the guy's proper name, Gwar!, that's ridiculous and you know it), what they've done, etc. It even goes to describe how Commissar Yarrick and Kharn the Betrayer perform feats to distinguish themselves among great characters. Yet Mephiston is just some old librarian.

RAW, no, he probably isn't affected.

RAI, I would think so.

Side note: He also doesn't have Move Through Cover. Not a big deal, but if they're using it, then they shouldn't be.

Mephiston is described near a few characters, but also before the Sanguinary & Honor Guards. Not hugely indicative there.

Old One Eye is Unique, but is certainly not a character. Fluff-wise, it's a recurrent mutation used by the Hive Mind under certain, specific situations. Ditto the Swarmlord. Contrast with the Parasite, who is labeled as as character. The Changling? Upgrade (special) character. Fateweaver? Not a character. Hell, Pask is just a tank upgrade - should you be able to affect "his" leadership?

I don't think we need to touch RAI here. GW is perfectly capable of indicating when something is a character; if they choose to errata Deathleaper to indicate he can go after non-character models like Daemon Princes and Mephiston, everyone will be happy. But until then, the rules are extremely clear & easy to follow here. If it's neither an Upgrade Character nor an Independent Character, it's not a character.

+1 to Janthkin.

Janthkin wrote:

puma713 wrote:I know that we're not talking about RAI here. But I would think RAI would be that he is affected. He is a "unique" unit and the only place that "unique" units are described is Characters and Special Characters. So, simply by him being Unique and the only place him being described is the Characters section, I would say that that gives him a good reason to be a "character", since it describes everything about characters: how they're named (and don't bring up "Assault Marine" could be the guy's proper name, Gwar!, that's ridiculous and you know it), what they've done, etc. It even goes to describe how Commissar Yarrick and Kharn the Betrayer perform feats to distinguish themselves among great characters. Yet Mephiston is just some old librarian.

RAW, no, he probably isn't affected.

RAI, I would think so.

Side note: He also doesn't have Move Through Cover. Not a big deal, but if they're using it, then they shouldn't be.

Old One Eye is Unique, but is certainly not a character. Fluff-wise, it's a recurrent mutation used by the Hive Mind under certain, specific situations. Ditto the Swarmlord. Contrast with the Parasite, who is labeled as as character. The Changling? Upgrade (special) character. Fateweaver? Not a character. Hell, Pask is just a tank upgrade - should you be able to affect "his" leadership?

That's fine. What is Old One Eye then? He's not a monstrous creature either.

He's not?

puma713 wrote:That's fine. What is Old One Eye then? He's not a monstrous creature either.

Erm... Whut?

Try reading the codex? Page 57:

Old One Eye
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature

And again on page 92.

Mannahnin wrote:He's not?

Although I'm at work (so nowhere near my Codicies), if I remember correctly, he's simply Type: Unique and no more of a monstrous creature than Mephiston is.

However, I could be wrong and he could be Type: Unique (Monstrous Creature), but I don't think so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:That's fine. What is Old One Eye then? He's not a monstrous creature either.

Erm... Whut?

Try reading the codex? Page 57:

Old One Eye
Unit Type: Monstrous Creature

And again on page 92.

That's fine as well (as I said, I'm not anywhere near my Codices). However, that declaws Janthkin's examples about Unique models not being characters. All of his rebuttal examples are invalid.

No, it doesn't.

Characters are either Upgrade or Independent.

Old One Eye, Mephiston and all the rest are neither, so they are NOT characters.

Is this due to sloppy rules writing? Maybe. Still doesn't change what the rules are.

puma713 wrote:That's fine as well (as I said, I'm not anywhere near my Codices). However, that declaws Janthkin's examples about Unique models not being characters. All of his rebuttal examples are invalid.

For the Tyrannid codex, it's not "Type: Unique", it's "Composition: 1 (Unique)". "Unique" isn't a type.

A name does not a character make.

If you dont meet the definition of a char as defined by BRB then you cant be deathleapered.

Gwar! wrote:No, it doesn't.

Characters are either Upgrade or Independent.

Old One Eye, Mephiston and all the rest are neither, so they are NOT characters.

Is this due to sloppy rules writing? Maybe. Still doesn't change what the rules are.

Janthkin wrote:

puma713 wrote:That's fine as well (as I said, I'm not anywhere near my Codices). However, that declaws Janthkin's examples about Unique models not being characters. All of his rebuttal examples are invalid.

For the Tyrannid codex, it's not "Type: Unique", it's "Composition: 1 (Unique)". "Unique" isn't a type.

Yeah, maybe I should have my Codices nearby before I start debating/arguing rules.

Anyhow, like I said, I think RAI is it supposed to count Mephiston, but RAW is that it probably does not.

As someone else put it Mephiston is no more a special character than a landraider with the Dali Lama painted on it as a mural. Thanks to everyone here for your feedback, especially to Gwar - your RAW interpretation skills are razor sharp.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I brought up the point about upgrade and independent characters as well. The problem is he is a bully and other players dont want to ruffle his feathers. I told him to stick it where the sun dont shine though.

G

What store is this?