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Do Space Marine Command Squads really fail? I've heard some terrible things about them. They seem perfectly fine to me: kit them out for CC, stick them with the captain and get them to the front then go dish out some pain. They have 2 attacks each, can get some cool CC gear, the campion, apothecary etc.

I really don't see what the problem is with them. Can anyone who has used them tell me a little about them please? I would love to get one, just because they're cool, but I'm not sure if I'd be wasting money better spent on something else.

you don't need to buy the command squad kit to get a command squad... in fact, I wouldn't... I'd rather just convert normal marines.

A command squad is fine, so long as you don't go overboard on spending for it. a good example of what I would consider a points effective command squad is :

Veteran w/ banner
2x Veteran w/ plasma gun
Company Champion
Apothecary

for 160 points. This gets you a squad that can shoot or assault about as well as any 10 man tac squad in your list, for significantly cheaper. If you really want to go more assaulty based, then fine... here's a setup I'd use:

Veteran w/ banner + power sword
2x Veterans with melta guns
Company Champion
Apothecary

for 165 points, they loose the range on the plasma guns, as well as the rapid fire ability, but can bust tanks better, and get 8 power sword swings on the charge. If you have points to spare, you could throw a fist on one of the melta gunners, and go up to 190, but thats getting a bit pricey. Keep it as cheap as possible, and you won't regret taking the command squad.

I think its not that the command squad sucks in CC, its just that if you outfit them for it, you can buy Assault Termies and they come with special power weapons, a 2+/5++ save, and generally scaring the crap out of the enemy.

Personally I use them to spam special weapons.

They are good, just pricey. If you want power weapons/fists plus a champion, your looking at ~200 points for 5 models.
Compare the effectiveness of a tricked out SM command squad to 3 TH/SS termies and 2 LC/LC termies in a squad.

Now termies can't go in rhinos or bikes, but I think the advantages of termies outweigh the disadvantages.

terminators are a great buy... but transportation is a problem. the single biggest problem with taking a command squad is that you have to take a captain to get them, and the captain is among the worst choices to take for an HQ... he's just not cost effective. I'd rather have a librarian any day.

for biker armies, you don't have a choice to take a captain, and so, biker command squads are fairly common... With 300 point bike squads everywhere, the ability to re-roll failed morale from the banner is huge, so one unlucky boxcars roll doesn't mess you up for the whole game.

Depends on who your Captain is. Cato Sicarius is one of the most cost effective HQs the Space Marines can have thanks to the ways he influences the armies under his command. Take a Librarian to back him up, and you're pretty much set.

My favourite Command Squad configuration is:

1x Veteran with Company Standard
3x Veterans with Plasma Guns
1x Apothecary

The Apothecary lets your Plasma Specialists blaze away with nigh impunity, while the Company Standard combined with Sicarius' Ld10 means they'll keep your Marines moving in the right direction.

I'm sorta just wondering if my fluffy command squad would be alright. It's got company champion, standard and one vet has a thunder hammer. I'm also considering giving the TH vet a combi-melta. I'm just choosing this kit because they're just a bunch of fluffy characters, but obviously they wouldn't be particularly practical.

Pretty much,
They are pricey themselves and can't get more members.

Without the Storm Shields or a ride, their FNP is not a huge buff.

In addition, you have to have a Captain, who is himself lack-lustre, besides getting bikers scoring.

Else, if you put them in a particular role they can do well enough.

There is the combat oriented squad and then the shooting oriented squad.
Combat squad is most unique on a bike, else you could just get Hamminators who are too cost effective for their own good .

Then there is the shooting aspect...they are a great platform for spamming plasma guns IMO. Safer and more numerous than most other squads.

@ Sanctjud
What about giving the command squad all flamers on bikes and running them with a libby with avenger on a bike for multi flamey goodness?

I just thought about this during a game last night but not to sure if it would be worth it.

Well...are you going to have alot of elements to tank shock stuff to make it even more worth it?

The delivery of those weapons are quite expensive, and the type of target they are going after is what the whole SM list is generally geared to kill.

So...they can reap a bloody tole, but I don't think it will be something that comes up that often.

Command squads aren't for CC crumping.


they are a rare opprotunity to spam special weapons in a vanilla space marine list.


4 plasma guns for hunting terminators and MC with the apothacary making FNP a very low probability(2.5% chance of dieing)

4 Flamers and 4 lightning claws to make them a fearsome close range support unit.

4 meltaguns, 2 power fists or THs and melta bombs alrounde for an anti-tank nighmare.

Combin-with a captain with a combi-weapon of the same type to make them even better at what they do.

I'd have to agree that foot-slogging Command Squads are not for close combat, they're for spamming special weapons.
I'm building a 4-plasmagun+Apothecary squad right now. My general planis to park them in cover, and use the 24" range of plasmaguns to burn holes in things.
I run a bike/mech force supported by VenDreads, so my zippy-fast units can move forward whiel supported by plasma fire, and harass anything that wants to kill my command squad. I already paid for the captain on a bike, so the unlock of the command squad is already there.
Ideally, I'd actually put the command squad in a multi-level ruin that was bolstered by a Master of the Forge, or a Techmarine, or Lysander. That way I get a 3+ cover save against the things that really cause a squad like this headaches...pie plates. Spread the squad over two or three levels. Since a pie plate or template can only hit one level at a time, your losses are minimized when hit with those big whammies. You can even go to ground in the bolstered ruin, allowing you a 2+ cover save against hits from battlecannons and whatnot.

Now, if you're going biker command squad, go for Kor'sarro Khan along with them, and buy a coupel power weapons, and one fist. Khan's granting of Furious Charge and Hit and Run keeps you hitting early, and running away after the opponent's close combat phase. Hit whatever you ran from with a volley of twin-linked bolter shots, and charge back in. Rinse, repeat. Pick your targets, though, because anything with power weapons is chewing you up.

khan may grant you furious charge, but remember, you loose the ability to fail morale checks at will... a HUGE loss to a bike army... and the sole reason I don't include khan in my lists.

Honersstodnt wrote:khan may grant you furious charge, but remember, you loose the ability to fail morale checks at will... a HUGE loss to a bike army... and the sole reason I don't include khan in my lists.

Also true.
Also, don't fall into the trap of outflanking a ton of stuff, either. Too manyunits outflanking leads to an easy-to-counter biker force, and one that may not even get to grips with the enemy due to late arrivals on the wrnog side of the board.

Khan promotes Death Star-ring, if that is not your cup of tea, steer away from Khan .

Sanctjud wrote:Khan promotes Death Star-ring, if that is not your cup of tea, steer away from Khan .

Indeed. Folks seem to like the Khan+Assault Terminaors+LRC version of the DeathStar. Whihc I find hilarious, considering that he's a White Scars character, and Hammernators are almost as un-Scar-like as you can get.

yeah, but it is an effective combo.

i knew this guy who ran Shrike with assault terminators for Infiltrating, Fleeting goodness.

Captain with Artificer Armour, Relic Blade and Storm Shield is effectively even more powerful than a TH/SS equipped Terminator.
3 attacks, a higher WS, and with the artificer armour the 2+ save PLUS the 4+ Inv of the Iron Halo.

Give him a command squad and a Rhino and you can have a good combat team without having to bring a land raider or pesky deep striking.

Got to be careful on loadout though.
Standard Bearer really not worth it in my opinion.
Company Champion for 15 points....not worth it. his WS is only 5.

Let's See:

Sergeant w/ Combi-Melta and Lightning Claw
Veteran w/ Combi-Plasma & Lightning Claw
Apothecary w/ Combi-Melta

185 pts.

And captain comes in at 160

Total of 345 points. but it can take on just about anything and with the rerolled hits to wound can prob win. throw in a Razorback w/Lascannon and T-L plasma gun (to take you to 420 points total) you can take out tanks, infantry, HQ......

he's got a 3++ from the SS.

yes its a CC monster, but an expensive one at that.

a Command squad tooled up for CC is more expensive then a Assault terminator squad and the terminators can be more effective for cheaper.

Captain with Artificer Armour, Relic Blade and Storm Shield is effectively even more powerful than a TH/SS equipped Terminator.
3 attacks, a higher WS, and with the artificer armour the 2+ save PLUS the 4+ Inv of the Iron Halo.

That's quite misleading...

He costs 160 points.
The more accurate question is:
Is he 'more powerful' than FOUR TH/SS termies...and even then the Relic blade and Thunder hammer are two different things.

The termies are more durable... in this comparison.
More wounds and can't be instant killed.
Termies also bring more attacks...what the Captain only has going is hitting better and at initiative with the relic, but not as powerful as the hammers.

Actually, I'm gonna end that here... as it was a meaningless comparison to begin with.
________________________

Your load out Corennus:

Apoth with combi-melta: illegal.
The points cost is not accurate at this point.

Why run with combis when you could go with the real deal?

this is why i advocate the 4 plasma gun and captain with a combi-plasma package.

a ton of anti-MEQ fire protected from Gets Hot by FNP.

put LCs on the veterans for some CC bite if desired.

I like it too, with out the CC part .
But it's still a pretty penny sitting at a minimum 265 for the command squad before the captain.

ok.....so plasma seems to be the way to go. but if that's the case then I assume a plasma pistol for the captain is not sensible.
Instead give him a normal power sword and Bolt Pistol?

Ok......then we have:

Captain
Artificer Armour
Bolt Pistol
Lightning Claw

130

Command Squad
Sergeant: Plasma Gun
x 3 Veterans: Plasma Guns
Apothecary w/ Bolt Pistol

175

so in shooting at 12" they'll get to fire 8 plasma shots at Str 7 AP 3.....

And if they get assaulted they get two attacks. Just annoying they don't have an Iron Halo or Rosarius.

I think if i'm going to run a CC Command Squad any time soon I'll take them in a Rhino with Captain:

Captain:
Artificer Armour
Relic Blade
Storm Shield

160

Command Squad
x 4 Veterans w/ Lightning Claw
Apothecary

175

Rhino w/ HK Missile

45

Total: 380


Took H/K Missile cause i've only got one Rhino and I want it to be able to take out one tank at least.

A combat squad costing that much riding a AV 11 Metal Box...
That I do not suggest.

Else, if it's used for counter attack, that's a giant chunk of points not doing much.

The problem, IMO, isn't that command squads are bad. They're not. They're not great, and maybe they aren't even good, but they add some neat stuff to the space marine army, and while they cost more than a tactical squad with less durability, they can be used as anything from a cool bike squad to a solid counter assault unit to a relatively cheap 4 melta drop pod suicide unit.

No, the problem is that they only come with company captains, and you end up with two overstuffed and mediocre units in an army. Now, I ran Sicarius with a command squad in a razorback for a while, and the best I can say after that is "meh."

In the end, anything you're having a captain and command squad do, odds are there is something else that does it better and/or cheaper in the same codex. BTW, if you are running a captain, strongly consider sicarious. While he doesn't have the punch of a Relic Blade/Storm Sheild captain, he does add some great abilities to your army.

I think the problem really is they're overpriced.

Whole point (from fluff point of view) is that Captain goes with Command Squad to form a kind of uber hard unit that gets stuck in against the hardest opponents.

Cheapest you can get a command squad at is 125 points. And then it's a "What's the POINT!" situation.

Either take it masssively tooled up and costing the earth, and hope it will make its points back by killing everything. Or leave it.

I'd take it in a game just to see how it performs.

the problem with them is.

they are a squad of Sergeants that requires a good amount of expensive upgrades to be decent.

CC builds are so expensive that it makes more sense to take Assault terminators.

shooty builds are less expensive, but are just as fragile as a Tactical squad.

in any infantry heavy footslogging marine list, command squads are a requirement... because of the banner. Running marines, I can't tell you the number of morale checks i've failed when I shouldn't have. The re-roll on the banner is invaluable.

FNP and a Banner do not make up for the ludicrous points cost though!

The Command and Honour Squad options should be the coolest and most attractive options for a Space Marine list. After all you want to show off your HQ, not have them as an afterthought!

But no, we've got ultra weaponed up power armour command squad, or artificer armoured honour guard that suck even MORE points for less units!

The banner is nice, but it's not like you run like a biker...so morale is not as big of an issue as you make it sound.

It's nice, but I don't think it's worth 130 points base.
Have a primary role for the CS and have the banner as a secondary effect.