Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This came up during our current campaign.

Epidemus, a Nurgle HQ for Chaos Daemons, has a Tally that increases for every kill a follower of Nurgle inflicts (friend or foe). My friend argues that this does not count towards Necron until they are "removed from play" as a casualty. His argument is that the Necron do not count as "kills" since they have We'll be back. My argument is that the Chaos Daemon's codex states when a unit is killed (not casualty) it goes towards the Tally. I also mentioned that for melee Necrons are removed as kills for the sake of leadership rolls, sweeping advances, etc despite WBB... so how does this differ?

Although he stated they were different though he could not prove it. He agrees with me but still thinks Necron aren't considered "killed" until they are removed from the board entirely.

Has anyone encountered this before and if so do you have a better way to clarify?

Thank you

If the Necron gets back up, it's not dead yet, is it?

It's worth pointing out that the rulebook states, on page 24, "Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting, or incapacitated in some other way. In any case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle." In the spirit of fairness, that means that it's impossible for you to say that casualties have been "killed", either.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's also worth pointing out that the effects of the Tally don't change until the start of Epedimius's turn, so if you increase the tally by one for each Necron model placed face down, and then decrease the tally by one for each model that passes its WBB roll, all you're really doing is wasting time. It's just simply easier to count "kills" when the models are removed from the board, and it works out the same.

Lol, I was just about to say this sounds like a situation that we encountered a couple of weeks ago, and then I noticed the poster was one of the players lol.. It was a rather unique game, but thought I would say that this scenario would not be unique to Necrons (other than they are the only army that has the rule for the majority of its figures). I am sure this situation would be similar to Commissar Yarrick or anyone who has the ability to come back from the dead although I am not sure of anyone else who has the ability besides the two.

I'd play it as increasing the tally every time a Necron is downed - a single Necron warrior could increase the tally a dozen times if it was particularly lucky with it's WBB rolls.'

If you want a fluff explaination, the Tallyman's a tad preoccupied with his work, and doesn't notice the difference between one identical automaton and another.

I would argue that "kill" and "remove as a casualty" are the same in 40K terms.

Furthermore, I would argue that interpretation is desirable in the case of necrons as it prevents one necron from adding to the tally multiple times.

Hmm, being reduced to zero wounds is being killed innit?
A 'downed' necron add to the tally because they have been killed - They Will Be Back is an effect that counter the normal process to removing as a casualty.

If you haven't killed that necron where will it be back from
Meh need to go looks at actuall rules before I really weigh in thou.

solkan wrote:It's also worth pointing out that the effects of the Tally don't change until the start of Epedimius's turn,

Excellent point from Solkan. So, sequence is:

Chaos turn - kills 10 necrons.
Necon turn - 5 necrons get back up.
Chaos turn - how many necrons have died since the start of my last turn = 5.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:Hmm, being reduced to zero wounds is being killed innit?

Well "killed" is not defined in the rules. The phrase used in the rules which seems to match is "removed from the table as a casualty".

Yes but the tally needs a deamon to kill them iirc, failing a WBB roll isn't being 'killed' by a deamon so wouldn't effect the tally under that interpretation...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"removed from the table as a casualty" Which the description of matches a Necron being down and waiting to become repaired.

ChrisCP wrote:"removed from the table as a casualty" Which the description of matches a Necron being down and waiting to become repaired.

No, it doesn't. WBB specifically says that the model is lain down instead of being removed as a casualty.

This is why WBB is an evil evil rule and the sooner it gets replaced with FnP the better.

Yes, in which case the Deamons (followers of nurgle iirc?) never actually cause a Necron to be removed as a casualty their failure to pass a WBB roll does... So no tally for the tally man...

It's really not that hard.

ChrisCP has the most logical argument on this. Until the Necron is removed, it doesn't count.

WBB isn't a bad rule, it's the needless overcomplication of rules that's the problem.

Umm, ChrisCP is arguing that they should add to the tally for downing a necron - not for removing it.

Quote tag reading fail.

I was actually agreeing with you, Scott!

So here is my two cents after looking up the respective rules:

According to the Chaos Daemons codex, "Whilst Epidermis is on the table, keep a count of all models killed..." (Chaos Daemon Codex p. 52).

According to the Necron codex, "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it is damaged" (Necron Codex p. 13)

So to me, this states that Necrons are not dead, but damaged due to the reduced to 0 wounds wording. I would not go so far to suggest that the Chaos Daemon player would not get the tally due to the Necron being killed by a failed WBB roll.

Edit: Just a side note, also within my reading it would prevent the Daemon player from getting multiple tallies due to WBB rolls.

The BRB also says on page 24:

Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In any case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle.

Therefore, Epidemus's Tallyman rule doesn't work at all.

The rule SHOULD say "Whilst Epidermis is on the table, keep a count of all models removed as casualties..."

Scott-S6 wrote:Umm, ChrisCP is arguing that they should add to the tally for downing a necron - not for removing it.

Actually, I was pointing out that if the Tally didn't increase for downing a Necron then there's no way a Necron failing their WBB could increase the Tally either so in both situations the requierments to raise the tally wouldn't be met, the only place they could have possibly been met were when the necron was downed, but we all seems to agree after reviewing the rules that this isn't actually good enough.

ChrisCP wrote:Yes, in which case the Deamons (followers of nurgle iirc?) never actually cause a Necron to be removed as a casualty their failure to pass a WBB roll does... So no tally for the tally man...