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So me and my friend had a game last night. My Eldar and his Spess Marhines. I had one unit of ten pathfinders and he had sniper scouts. Just for giggles we made it so that snipers have the ability to split fire instead of all firing at one, and to have to attacking player allocate sniping wounds. I worked great and we had allot of fun. Just thought I would throw that out thier.

Anyone

C&C welcome

Addicted to Bleach wrote:So me and my friend had a game last night. My Eldar and his Spess Marhines. I had one unit of ten pathfinders and he had sniper scouts. Just for giggles we made it so that snipers have the ability to split fire instead of all firing at one, and to have to attacking player allocate sniping wounds. I worked great and we had allot of fun. Just thought I would throw that out thier.

Anyone

C&C welcome

Wow! The first sniper rules I've ever seen where it doesn't involve Snipers invoking instant death on a 2+ and doing 5d6 wounds to MC's and all of this over-the-top crap.

I like these a lot. Makes snipers much more useful but doesn't make them OP.

So that makes all snipers equilivent to Vindicares?
Split fire is ok but not chose who dies.

I think it's not out of the question.
When people make rules for sniper rifles in 40k they basically assume that all sniper shots immediately disembowel and mutilate the target no matter where they hit. This is a very good representation because you really can't throw your best bud Bob in front of a sniper bullet as it is travelling...
Greetsz,
Mr. Self Destruct

I approve, it makes snipers not suck so much.

However I would keep the rule that says you have to allocate wounds, as in you can't say "All those sniper hits were on the I.C. in the unit and no one else"

VikingScott wrote:So that makes all snipers equilivent to Vindicares?
Split fire is ok but not chose who dies.

Well these are still work in progress. They are meant to make snipers more of what they were meant to do Assainate and cause mass havoc. I dont think its OTT but could some other people playtest both ways and report back. As always C&C welcome

I wouldn't mind the ability to allocate wounds if it isn't an automatic thing, that'd be too powerful and kind of boring. Perhaps each 6 rolled on your rolls to hit indicates a sniper was able to pick out a key target. Each 6 rolled by your snipers could be allocated to a target to a target of your choice.

Mr. Self Destruct wrote:I think it's not out of the question.
When people make rules for sniper rifles in 40k they basically assume that all sniper shots immediately disembowel and mutilate the target no matter where they hit. This is a very good representation because you really can't throw your best bud Bob in front of a sniper bullet as it is travelling...
Greetsz,
Mr. Self Destruct

Sure, but you wouldn't them in front of a round from an assault rifle either. Having seen rules development on a variety of other games, particularly role playing games, there is a constant cry among gamers for the most 'gamer cool' weapons like sniper rifles and katanas to be made ludicrously deadly. I've noticed people fixating on the AA-12 in the same way lately. I don't know why this is, geeks are just weird like that.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:Well these are still work in progress. They are meant to make snipers more of what they were meant to do Assainate and cause mass havoc. I dont think its OTT but could some other people playtest both ways and report back. As always C&C welcome

hmm, yes, but in the time it takes a sniper to single out one enemy with a shiny badge (or is holding the chainsword I guess) he could make three shots at anything else after all, a scope focuses your view, but you would need a braod view to effieciantly find someone important. also sniper weapons do incur pinning tests anyway.

think of it this way, snipers rely on stealth and even though they could make a good shot at stationary targets in a typical sneaky situation, the fact of the matter is that once a battle breaks out involving dozens, hundreds or thousands of people they will HAVE to keep thier heads down. as a sniper if you are clear in the sights of the enemy because you stuck your head out for 5 seconds then your cover is no longer safe, not much chance to find any cover soon. normal soldier don't need to worry about this because they can fire from the hip and such so they can shoot a few rounds in the general direction of the enemy and still move at a brisk pace

I would say remove the split fire ability, they should clearly still fire at the same squad, thats just the way of 40k. In reality every squad would have common sense to split fire, but its 40k, not life.

Picking targets with snipers just makes sense however, cause thats really their whole purpose. Sit unseen until you can get that perfect shot on something important. So if there is an IC you really want dead, the snipers would be focusing their shots on him to make sure at least one of them got a killing blow. Or if there is a larger group they would likely be calling shots on troops with special equipment or someone who seems to be in charge. I would suggest allowing the ability to target models, but you would have to do it before your roll to hit. IE, these 4 snipers will try to take out the IC and these two will try to take out a missile launcher(from the same squad), then roll to wound. Not roll and see you got 3 wounds, 1 of which is rending and then be able to say, well Im gonna but the rending wound on this important guy and this wound here, and this wound here. This makes no sense. My way you can essentially waste hits and wounds if multiple snipers get a wound on the same model, but its the risk you take if you want something in particular dead.

Additionally, if these rules still seem like they are too much you could make them applicable only if the sniper team hadn't moved in their previous move phase (similar to the master of ordinance), because they would need the extra time observing the battle from their current position to be able to identify high priority targets, or some such.

As far as rules for snipers go this is a reasonable improvment. I'm with Vladsimpaler in saying that these are the first sniper rules that don't make me want to laugh in the writers face. Good Work

K-Hop wrote:I would say remove the split fire ability, they should clearly still fire at the same squad, thats just the way of 40k. In reality every squad would have common sense to split fire, but its 40k, not life.

Picking targets with snipers just makes sense however, cause thats really their whole purpose. Sit unseen until you can get that perfect shot on something important. So if there is an IC you really want dead, the snipers would be focusing their shots on him to make sure at least one of them got a killing blow. Or if there is a larger group they would likely be calling shots on troops with special equipment or someone who seems to be in charge. I would suggest allowing the ability to target models, but you would have to do it before your roll to hit. IE, these 4 snipers will try to take out the IC and these two will try to take out a missile launcher(from the same squad), then roll to wound. Not roll and see you got 3 wounds, 1 of which is rending and then be able to say, well Im gonna but the rending wound on this important guy and this wound here, and this wound here. This makes no sense. My way you can essentially waste hits and wounds if multiple snipers get a wound on the same model, but its the risk you take if you want something in particular dead.

Additionally, if these rules still seem like they are too much you could make them applicable only if the sniper team hadn't moved in their previous move phase (similar to the master of ordinance), because they would need the extra time observing the battle from their current position to be able to identify high priority targets, or some such.

I think this is perfect.

Yea I'm liking the wound allocation K-Hop suggested, because in the military you'll never have a squad of ten guys all close together ALL armed with sniper rifles, you'd have one guy with a rifle and one spotter
so that wound allocation kind of reflects the individuals working together, all noticing one guy and directing fire on him
Also whenever sum1 suggests some OP sniper rule i automaticly picture that scene from saving private ryan at the end when the sniper guy is shooting and he MISSES and doesn't always kill...so i think that idea of "pick who from the squad is gonna shoot at whom from the other squad" really reflects that sense of "o man i've gotta pull out all the stops to kill this guy before someone figures out where i am and shoots a tank round at me"

I like K-Hop's idea best, both realistic and not OP, meaning that models armed with snipers will do what snipers are supposed to do, not just acting like every other shooty unit in the army.

sebster wrote: I've noticed people fixating on the AA-12 in the same way lately.

Funny you should say that, Ive noticed that too.

Fairness aside, a sniper picks a target... it's ridiculous that the shooter can't allocate the wounds.

Well, first, typically the upgrade is phrased as "One [model name] may exchange their [weapon] for a Sniper Rifle at Xpts," or something similar. So it's not really a Sniper taking the field, but some guy with a Sniper Rifle.

Obviously it can be assumed that the model being "issued" the rifle has proven some sort of ability with a rifle. It used to be that getting a Sniper Rifle meant you hit on a 2+ and wounded on a 4+. Now, Snipers hit on their normal BS and wound on a 4+ with rending on 6s. The former reflects an excellent shooter, but the latter reflects someone with similar skill to his other "soldiers," and now armed with a weapon that gives them the ability to do extra damage.

What does this reflect to me? The older style would make more sense as a Sniper as most people understand them (which isn't actually what a sniper is exactly, but the term Sniper can be pretty broad), an extremely accurate shooter with a deadly weapon. That "sniper" would make sense to be able to allocate wounds to specific models, as they are trained to focus on important targets. The later, the current system, reflects a "combat marksman." These soldiers are the better shots in a unit (not necessarily the best shooters, but the best of their units), and are issued weapons to assist them in longer range, more difficult shots. While these soldiers are given instruction to identify and eliminate targets of opportunity (such as commanders and special weapons), which all soldiers are instructed to do.

They are more generally given the duty as either impromptu-counter-snipers or to extend the range and precision of a unit. Their main job is the same as the rest of their unit, just with the additional range and accuracy of their weapon.

Why not give snipers the ability that WH/DH Death Cult Assains have? Buy them in groups of 5 or so and then they can act independently.

Picking targets would be bad... very bad... Alot of armies/units rely on having a particular model survive, being able to kill that model off would be devestating, and not all armies can take sniper rifles so if would be a big boost to some and nothing to others.

I'd rather see snipers have negative modifiers for pinning (-1 per wound taken) if say, a unit of scouts cause 3 wounds, that Ld 8 marine unit must take a test at Ld 5

dayve110 wrote:Picking targets would be bad... very bad... Alot of armies/units rely on having a particular model survive, being able to kill that model off would be devestating, and not all armies can take sniper rifles so if would be a big boost to some and nothing to others.

I'd rather see snipers have negative modifiers for pinning (-1 per wound taken) if say, a unit of scouts cause 3 wounds, that Ld 8 marine unit must take a test at Ld 5

In all honesty, hidden models are something that is WRONG with 40k, rather than something that should be retained or protected. Second, I'm in general against Snipers causing Pinning tests, however I do like the idea of causing a -1 Ld for each wound, but these days there are so many Fearless or Stubborn units that Pinning seems the do practically nothing, unfortunately.

Perhaps an Initiative test for each shot? This would reflect the shooter's ability to identify a target and engage them. If passed, the shooting play allocates the sniper wounds, but looses the chance for Rending (to reflect the shooter consciously tracking and engaging a specific target, rather than one that would be the easiest target). Wound allocation must follow regular wound allocation rules.

Example: A Space Marine Scout squad with four Sniper Rifles and a Heavy Bolter engages an Imperial Guard squad with a Heavy Weapons team, Special Weapon, and Sergeant (total of ten models). The Scouts roll their Initiative, three pass (the failed shot may not fire, as the shooting model spent too much time trying to find and track a target). They roll to hit, three hit, roll to wound, they all wound. Now the Scout Player would LIKE to stack two of the wounds on the Heavy Weapons Team and one on the Special Weapon model, however following regular wound allocation, the player disburses them on the Heavy Weapons Team, Special Weapons, and Sergeant. Now the Heavy Bolter fires, two hit, and both wound. The 'victim' Player allocates the remaining wounds as normal.

dayve110 wrote:Picking targets would be bad... very bad... Alot of armies/units rely on having a particular model survive, being able to kill that model off would be devestating, and not all armies can take sniper rifles so if would be a big boost to some and nothing to others.

I think it's an interesting ability, and agree that being able to allocate every hit is overpowering. That's where I think a balance needs to be struck between snipers never picking out key targets and snipers always firing at the key model. It's why I suggested that if you roll a 6 to hit you can allocate, but otherwise allocation is determined as normal.

Whats over powered is having a single model that can kill the crap out of an entire army by himself hiding inside a group of 30. Thats 30 wounds you would have to get with a single units shooting before they would have to allocate a single wound to this model, which mostly likely has a 3++ or better save. And even if you do happen to weed down a 30 man squad to get to him, that super character could just move three inches to the right and join up with another 30 man squad. The whole time your killing these billions of guys your just trying to get at one specific one, but you cant.

If snipers had the ability to allocate wounds, it still doesn't guarantee them the ability to take out priority targets either. They still have to hit, 4+, and then wound, 4+ with current wounds, or possibly worse if they changed the sniper rules to wound allocation and gave them a str value. So in a squad of 5 snipers, your still only looking at 1, maybe 2 wounds, which are savable. So a single squad of snipers would still not be able to take him down before he rushed across the field to mess you up.

Sure, it would suck if someone created like an all sniper army, but every army has weaknesses. How would it be any more over powered than raider spam, or tervigon spam, or any other number of dumb builds out there. You could jack up special characters and such with a lot of snipers, but then you army likely wouldn't be well rounded, and may not do well over all.

K-Hop wrote:Whats over powered is having a single model that can kill the crap out of an entire army by himself hiding inside a group of 30. Thats 30 wounds you would have to get with a single units shooting before they would have to allocate a single wound to this model, which mostly likely has a 3++ or better save. And even if you do happen to weed down a 30 man squad to get to him, that super character could just move three inches to the right and join up with another 30 man squad. The whole time your killing these billions of guys your just trying to get at one specific one, but you cant.

If snipers had the ability to allocate wounds, it still doesn't guarantee them the ability to take out priority targets either. They still have to hit, 4+, and then wound, 4+ with current wounds, or possibly worse if they changed the sniper rules to wound allocation and gave them a str value. So in a squad of 5 snipers, your still only looking at 1, maybe 2 wounds, which are savable. So a single squad of snipers would still not be able to take him down before he rushed across the field to mess you up.

Sure, it would suck if someone created like an all sniper army, but every army has weaknesses. How would it be any more over powered than raider spam, or tervigon spam, or any other number of dumb builds out there. You could jack up special characters and such with a lot of snipers, but then you army likely wouldn't be well rounded, and may not do well over all.

1) What model can hide in a unit of 30 that has a 3++ save?
2) There are plenty of ways to take out charecters already without having to resort to sniper allocation.
3) You need better snipers, mine hit on a 3+ (5+ to hit is AP1) with the rules proposed here i'd be laughing every game.
4) Simple solution... i'll get inside vehicles... do you really want to encourage mech lists?

I played a necron warrior list the other week. He had a lord buried in a sqaud of at least 30 with a ressurection orb, to get a single wound on the lord I had to kill 30 guys in one turn. If I didn't 50% would just get back up again and i'd have to try again.

I like the ability to pick a target, I think K-hop has got it about right. Although an increase in cost may be needed.

I field 40 Snipers(SM) regularly.

You definately don't need to improve on the Kill power/Vs points, IMO.

600 points for 8 scoring units that can Infiltrate, go to ground, and be a pain in the @ss.
I love my Scout Snipers