Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been reading the Horus Heresy series and am slightly confused. This bothers me as I consider myself a fluff buff.

Anyways, after reading the two novels about the Dark Angels, I was couldn't understand the inclusion of psykers (Librarians) in their legion, much less their prominence. I thought psykers within the Legions were banned at the council of Nikea (Nicea?) and was kind of the whole point of the Space Wolves attacking Prospero (which is the very next book in the series).

So, weren't Space Marine (not all) psykers banned pre-heresy and why do the DAs have them?

Also, this is NOT a thread to discuss the quality of the novels.

To my understanding the Emperor didn't ban psykers, he simple forbid the use of psykic powers.

The Space Wolves attacked prospero because Magnus violated the Emperor's orders.

And in fact the Emperor ordered Russ to go to Prospero to bring Magnus to him not to seek and destroy, that was Horus doing.

Fiend wrote:I've been reading the Horus Heresy series and am slightly confused. This bothers me as I consider myself a fluff buff.

Anyways, after reading the two novels about the Dark Angels, I was couldn't understand the inclusion of psykers (Librarians) in their legion, much less their prominence. I thought psykers within the Legions were banned at the council of Nikea (Nicea?) and was kind of the whole point of the Space Wolves attacking Prospero (which is the very next book in the series).

So, weren't Space Marine (not all) psykers banned pre-heresy and why do the DAs have them?

Also, this is NOT a thread to discuss the quality of the novels.

i've actually wondered the same thing. the emperor didn't ban psykers, just their use of their powers. he ordered them to be reincorporated in the standard battlecompanies as normal space marines. considering that the fluff as to why IG don't use rhinos and Land Raiders anymore is that the emp ordered their use only with the marines since they were in short supply and the high lords didn't want to countermand the emp's direct order in the past 10,000 years... i'm suprised the marines use psykers. the order from the council was pretty clear (at least in the collected visions horus heresy book i've got).

Poor Magnus. If the Emperor didnt like Horus so much, maybe he would have listened to him, and the Thousand Sons might still be loyal.
Though they are a lot more badass this way.

Fiend wrote:I've been reading the Horus Heresy series and am slightly confused. This bothers me as I consider myself a fluff buff.

Anyways, after reading the two novels about the Dark Angels, I was couldn't understand the inclusion of psykers (Librarians) in their legion, much less their prominence. I thought psykers within the Legions were banned at the council of Nikea (Nicea?) and was kind of the whole point of the Space Wolves attacking Prospero (which is the very next book in the series).

So, weren't Space Marine (not all) psykers banned pre-heresy and why do the DAs have them?

The point of the attack on prospero was to weaken the SW and TS. Horus plan to kick the thousand sons over the edge and
addtionally weaken the space wolves worked. Dont know why valdor, the leader of the custodes supported the idea of an attack.
Maybe we need both novels for the whole picture.

In "a thousand sons", the space wolves had their runepriests still with them and active.
A ban on psykers would have hit them too.

I thought it was only the TS that were punished by the emperors decree for their blatant use of their powers. I may be wrong but as stated above the SW were still using their rune priests after Nikea,

There was no ban on psykers, because then the Great Crusade would have been impossible.

Without a psyker you cannot:
-- Travel faster than light.
-- Communicate faster than light
-- Detect enemy psychic powers (ery well at any rate)

From lexicanum:

'The council of Nikea is where the Emperor banned the use of psycic abilitys.'

Further (also from lexicanum):

Mhotep - He was a psychically talented individual who was subject to the Council of Nikea which prevented him and his Primarch from practising sorcery. (refering to thousand sons)

So the Emperor did ban the use of psycic ABILITIES.

Which as far as I know only applied to the Marines.

Obviously. As it can be related to the OP.

The subjects were astartes, hence all the facts presented being directly linked to them.

No one mentioned other psykers or Navigators and stuff, the topic questioned astertes and Nikea, hence all replies should be interpreted as referring exclusively to astartes unless otherwise stated.

Wouldn't it be silly for the Emperor to ban the use of all psykic powers when he is a psyker?

Yes, but I wouldn't put it beyond GW to have him do that.

Melissia wrote:Yes, but I wouldn't put it beyond GW to have him do that.

yeah, GW has build quite a reputation when it comes to fluff contradicting itself

Going back to his question about why they were in the DA-Descent of Angels takes place before Nikea I believe, no idea about fallen Angels.

I was under the impression that the prohibition was against Sorcery, not against Psykers.

Then again, I'm having a bit of trouble finding a clarification on when a psychic power is considered sorcery.

nobody wrote:

Then again, I'm having a bit of trouble finding a clarification on when a psychic power is considered sorcery.

You have just replied to your own comment

nobody wrote:I was under the impression that the prohibition was against Sorcery, not against Psykers.

Then again, I'm having a bit of trouble finding a clarification on when a psychic power is considered sorcery.

That was my impression too. From what I know, Psykers draw on emotions and the warp, channeling it with their minds, and sometimes technology and sometimes explode their own heads. Whereas magic and sorcery might have been more "Okay demon, here's a slave, now toss a fireball" or simply far, far more conductive to "I control the power, not it controls me" which would have been very bad due to the corrupting power of the warp. The theory lies on one being pure mental will, which the Imperium can help control with hypnotherapy and whatnot, and the other being far more clinical and studied art which leads to delusions of control when you preform it 100 times perfectly.

Krauser wrote:From lexicanum:

'The council of Nikea is where the Emperor banned the use of psycic abilitys.'

Further (also from lexicanum):

Mhotep - He was a psychically talented individual who was subject to the Council of Nikea which prevented him and his Primarch from practising sorcery. (refering to thousand sons)

So the Emperor did ban the use of psycic ABILITIES.

Well if he banned psychic abilities then how is there an imperium? I think it was more of a paper tiger to slap Magnus on the wrist or in other words the emperors way of saying "No! Bad Primarch!".

Krauser wrote:

nobody wrote:

Then again, I'm having a bit of trouble finding a clarification on when a psychic power is considered sorcery.

You have just replied to your own comment

Not really. For some factions that's certainly the case (Black Templars, Puritanical Inquisition, etc). I'll probably have to go back and re-read the Council of Nikea scene in the "A Thousand Sons" novel to see if it's clarified.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Krauser wrote:From lexicanum:

'The council of Nikea is where the Emperor banned the use of psycic abilitys.'

Further (also from lexicanum):

Mhotep - He was a psychically talented individual who was subject to the Council of Nikea which prevented him and his Primarch from practising sorcery. (refering to thousand sons)

So the Emperor did ban the use of psycic ABILITIES.

Well if he banned psychic abilities then how is there an imperium? I think it was more of a paper tiger to slap Magnus on the wrist or in other words the emperors way of saying "No! Bad Primarch!".

That's the current official fluff about the incident, I know it doesn't make much sense, but since when does GW cares about common sense?

I was referring to Astartes psykers, not all psykers, since I understood the council of nikea applied to the use of their powers.

I think that at the time of the council the effects of the warp and chaos were largely unknown (they were discovering these effects in Horus Rising) so the Emperor's restriction probably seemed arbitrary.

I still don't see why the DAs had such prominent Librarians although the explanation that the council hadn't happened yet is possible as the series seems to bounce.

The CoN applies only to the Space Marines, and as far as I can tell reading "Battle of the Abyss" only certain chapters even give a gak. Navigators are a mutation of the Human genome coming about during the Dark Age of Technology, much like the Adeptus Mechanius the Navigators are untouchable if the Emperor hopes to rule an empire.

I think less of the contradictions have to do with GW and more to do with the very nature of the idea of an Evolving universe, so many questions have been answered by my gaming group or your group or this store or that store that we have ideas of how it should be before cannon is released. Also GW can always claim censorship by the Imperial Propaganda Machine.

The Council of Nikaea was IMMEDIATELY prior to the heresy actually occuring. Like weeks before it.

Fiend wrote:I've been reading the Horus Heresy series and am slightly confused. This bothers me as I consider myself a fluff buff.

Anyways, after reading the two novels about the Dark Angels, I was couldn't understand the inclusion of psykers (Librarians) in their legion, much less their prominence. I thought psykers within the Legions were banned at the council of Nikea (Nicea?) and was kind of the whole point of the Space Wolves attacking Prospero (which is the very next book in the series).

So, weren't Space Marine (not all) psykers banned pre-heresy and why do the DAs have them?

Also, this is NOT a thread to discuss the quality of the novels.

As far as the Timeline goes for the DA books, they were BEFORE the CoN. In fact, the first book takes place like a century before the CoN, and the second book happens like right before it (The MC of the second book gives Perturbo the Siege Tanks in which to assault the Palace on Terra.)

Also, the DA's would ignore the CoN anyways, because the keeper of history within the Legion/Chapter is the Head librarian of the Legion, and that mofo is important. (Not to be confused with Cypher, who is the keeper of SECRETS in the chapter pre-heresy.)

Also, if you know the DAngels @ all, you would know they never do anything according to the Imperium's plans