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Hello all,

I've been a fan of this site for a while, so I thought I'd sign-up and get posting!

Myself and a friend have just started Fantasy after having played 40k in the 90's. I've gone for DE and him the Orcs.

The problem I'm having is killing his Warboss. He normally goes with that +1 WS, +S, +1 attack skill and puts him in a unit of boys. I've challenged him twice with my Crimson Death/Armour of Darkness hero and he always wins! and then proceeds to slaughter the rest of my unit.

Are there hero/assassin wargear combinations that work well against high toughness opponents. We normally play around 1000pts as that's all we have painted, so nothing too expensive points-wise...

Thanks!

An Assassin with the rune of khaine, killing blow, and the poison that re-rolls 1s has a pretty decent chance of dropping him with a killing blow. You'll be looking at 5-7 attacks, almost all of which should hit, and just need a single 6 to wound.

Pendant will also make you survive 5 out of 6 of his wounding hits, so you can safely arm yourself with a great weapon (or that armor piercing great weapon if it's cheap enough).

And as always with Orcs, another good way is to use your superior maneuverability to hit him in the flank (like say, with a hydra) and break him and run him down without ever fighting the boss itself.

RZ

Thanks Red_Zeke,

I agree with the flanking options, but there's something incredibly satisfying about killing him in a duel!

Assassin it is then...

The only issue with the assassin is if you dont kill him in that first round, unless he gets some horrendous rolls he is going to splat that model.

Thanks ShivanAngel,

So is the recognised WHFB tactic of dealing with powerful heros (who out-class yours) to defeat them using ranks and combat resolution?

Dark elves are not very fighty, they can do some damage in combat, but generally wont outkill most armies.

Your best bet is a combined front and flank charge and break it due to CR.

I wasnt saying assassins dont do well, in fact in challenges they are extremely strong. However if they dont kill the model its challenging it more then likely wont survive. No armor and usually no ward save with T3=splat.

I will say that against a say T3/4 W2/3 model my assassin wins about 75% of the time if its the killy build.

extra hand weapon, Rune of khaine and man bane, will kill that warboss *everytime*.
4+D3 attacks that strike first,
Ws 9 + hatred= *autohit*
manbane= 2/3s wound, no save (assuming mundane armor)
consistantly 5hits, 3wounds... I would also like to note that orcs make poor slaves, but excellent cold one chow

Kiwidru wrote:extra hand weapon, Rune of khaine and man bane, will kill that warboss *everytime*.
4+D3 attacks that strike first,
Ws 9 + hatred= *autohit*
manbane= 2/3s wound, no save (assuming mundane armor)
consistantly 5hits, 3wounds... I would also like to note that orcs make poor slaves, but excellent cold one chow

Meh there are times when you flop your dice...

Statistically yes. However i think we have all flopped dice on occasion. There are constantly times wher im like, hmmm math gods hate me.

Thanks all,

Will be investing in a shiny new assassin then!

The other build for assassins is Manbane plus rending stars.

These almost always hit on a 2+ and wound on a 2+, very nice.

They can also oneshot chariots if they are T5 due to how the rule for them is written.

Bolt Throwers are extremely nice if he has him in a unit of boys.

Just volley them with your 2 Bolt Throwers until he can't make a "Look out, sir!" roll, and then single shot him to death.

Karon wrote:Bolt Throwers are extremely nice if he has him in a unit of boys.

Just volley them with your 2 Bolt Throwers until he can't make a "Look out, sir!" roll, and then single shot him to death.

Until the unit is less then US 5 the volley's will only take out rank and file members....

After that you can target him directly. Look out sir is only against things directly targeted against the character, which is cannonballs, templates, etc.

Unless you do a single shot, which is normally not a very good idea as 6 shots are better.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Karon wrote:Bolt Throwers are extremely nice if he has him in a unit of boys.

Just volley them with your 2 Bolt Throwers until he can't make a "Look out, sir!" roll, and then single shot him to death.

Until the unit is less then US 5 the volley's will only take out rank and file members....

After that you can target him directly. Look out sir is only against things directly targeted against the character, which is cannonballs, templates, etc.

Unless you do a single shot, which is normally not a very good idea as 6 shots are better.

I said exactly that, Shivan...

I said "Volley them with your 2 bolt thrower until he can't make a "Look out, sir!" roll, and then single shot him to death"

I dunno, wouldn't two shots at S6 doing D3 wounds be better?

Hmm, I believe I shall be expecting an assassin in one of your units next game...muahahha

What about a way of having an awesome orc boss to beat the assassin...any ideas on that?

LambRogan wrote:Hmm, I believe I shall be expecting an assassin in one of your units next game...muahahha

What about a way of having an awesome orc boss to beat the assassin...any ideas on that?

dont fight the 5+ attacks Str 4 hit rerolling killing blow assassin

@ Shivan: yeah, a good buddy plays DE, I've learned to pray to the god of ones-and-twos during the wound phase I still maintain that assassin is the best option to take out a troublesome hero, and at 1k points is probably going to be the best dueler on the table.

@ Lamb : the flqnking ideas Red_Zeke wrote are good once you have located the assassin... During that inevitable first duel however, he is a cold blooded killer, but he kills everything with the same efficiency: try feeding him cheap champions and hoping your boss and the boys can out fight his overkill resolution

Good luck to the both of you, and it looks like the grudge-match just kicked up a notch... I anticipate a bit more intrigue next game, let us know how it pans out!

Second that. Battle reports required.

I will speak to the effectiveness of those combat build assassins. Just played in a tournament where a single assassin (with the build I mentioned) KO'ed my BSB, Longbeard champ and lasted 4 combat rounds clearing out his kill zone. He'd leave a couple rank and file, but with WS 9, I needed 5s to hit, 4s to wound, and it just wasn't falling.

As mentioned, he'll die if a character lives through his assault, but he's brutal prior to that.

I guess I'm out voted on manbane vs killing blow, but I think we all agree an assassin is the easiest solution. I would tinker around and see which one you feel better about. I will say that mathhammer wise I think the kb is better against lords and more defensive heros, where the gamble on a one shot kill is more lucrative. Mathammer isn't the Talmud, but in duels (ESP with ASF) there will *always* be common components that can be averaged into probability.
For instance, with the KB build if you roll average (meaning what *should/usually* happen)
D3+4= 6 attacks, which trickles down to 5 hits. Now out of those five hits each one has slightly less than a 1\5 chance to KB; So you are going into the combat NOT averaging a KB, meaning you will need 2 wounding rolls of 5+ to take down the big green machine. Now above average rolls during the RoK, hits, or wounds will sway that probability in your favor... But there are better situations to put yourself in.
A second factor to note is the RnF, str 4 kb is not going to be as effective vs the high T low save orcs bulking out his army...
either way: praise khaine! blood for the blood god! or something like that

Why Kill him?

put a unit of Dark Riders in front of him and flee/rally/flee/rally/flee/rally all day long while you kill everything else around him.

Imagine it: He spent a ton of points on that character, and fully intends for him to beat face, and probably put him in a nice unit that also beats face. Then he spends all game WANTING to get into combat with that super awesome ork unit. And you spent 110 points denying it any sort of love all. game. long.

You play dark elves. They love to torture people. Not getting that ork unit into combat would be torture on the ork player. You are effectively torturing him. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.

Ragnar4 wrote:Why Kill him?

put a unit of Dark Riders in front of him and flee/rally/flee/rally/flee/rally all day long while you kill everything else around him.

Imagine it: He spent a ton of points on that character, and fully intends for him to beat face, and probably put him in a nice unit that also beats face. Then he spends all game WANTING to get into combat with that super awesome ork unit. And you spent 110 points denying it any sort of love all. game. long.

You play dark elves. They love to torture people. Not getting that ork unit into combat would be torture on the ork player. You are effectively torturing him. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.

win..

Ragnar4 wrote:Why Kill him?

put a unit of Dark Riders in front of him and flee/rally/flee/rally/flee/rally all day long while you kill everything else around him.

Imagine it: He spent a ton of points on that character, and fully intends for him to beat face, and probably put him in a nice unit that also beats face. Then he spends all game WANTING to get into combat with that super awesome ork unit. And you spent 110 points denying it any sort of love all. game. long.

You play dark elves. They love to torture people. Not getting that ork unit into combat would be torture on the ork player. You are effectively torturing him. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.

What is to stop the unit of orcs from just... not charging the unit of dark riders.... They dont have frenzy, which is what bait and flee is most effective against.

They can just ignore your dark riders and march down the field. This is especially true if the have a block or two of shooters, Dark riders get slaughtered by shooting (only a 5+ save), so one good bolt thrower shot or a volley from a ranged unit and they are facing a panic test.

Also riders are only LD8, which means you will fail about 1/3-1/4 rallies, which can easily take them off the board or to far away to be a nuisance for a turn.

ShivanAngel wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:Why Kill him?

put a unit of Dark Riders in front of him and flee/rally/flee/rally/flee/rally all day long while you kill everything else around him.

Imagine it: He spent a ton of points on that character, and fully intends for him to beat face, and probably put him in a nice unit that also beats face. Then he spends all game WANTING to get into combat with that super awesome ork unit. And you spent 110 points denying it any sort of love all. game. long.

You play dark elves. They love to torture people. Not getting that ork unit into combat would be torture on the ork player. You are effectively torturing him. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.

What is to stop the unit of orcs from just... not charging the unit of dark riders.... They dont have frenzy, which is what bait and flee is most effective against.

They can just ignore your dark riders and march down the field. This is especially true if the have a block or two of shooters, Dark riders get slaughtered by shooting (only a 5+ save), so one good bolt thrower shot or a volley from a ranged unit and they are facing a panic test.

Also riders are only LD8, which means you will fail about 1/3-1/4 rallies, which can easily take them off the board or to far away to be a nuisance for a turn.

Riders are ld 8 but with a musician are ld9 which brings our failure rate to 6/36 or 1in6.

Your shooting is far superior, if someone tries to shoot you, you have the right to shoot them right back.

Also: Park a unit of dark riders exactly 5 inches from a unit of orks (in front). That unit of orks now has a choice. They either walk to 4 inches, and then stop.. OR they declare a charge. As long as you roll better than 1,1,1 you get away.

Dwarfs can be march blocked in the same manner. I JUST BLEW YOUR MIND! Don't try to say they can't be march blocked either.. BECAUSE I JUST DID IT! DOUBLE MIND BLOW!

Why is everybody so obsessed with close combat, just use the Dark Elf spell that let's you collect dice, then the one that does something like 3D6 S4 attacks, I forgot what theyre both called but you have the codex you'll know, anywyas. SORTED. Case closed.

Not obsessed, OP just asked specifically *how* to kill the boss. An assassin is one way. Magic is another.

Avoidance and redirect is a way to get around the problem too, but there may still be reasons to go for the kill. It's possible that in the 1000 point game, this unit represents a large enough points chunk that perhaps a win elsewhere is difficult?

Or perhaps the main block has been properly supported with the tools available to an O&G army (chariots/light cav/fanatics). Things can really sprawl in that way, so I tried to be direct with my answer, and focus on options I had some experience with.

RZ

I didn't just meen obsessed in this thread, just everywhere on any warhammer site I go everyones so into CC, I just personally prefer to destroy them from a distance tbh. Another method is to hope to feth that he rolls crap on animosity, and while he cant charge you, your stood there sticking ones up at him, your friend has been rolling for animosity, right?

Thanks all for your colourful replies!

I want to kill the Warboss out of revenge and needed a way of doing it, as my tooled hero kept getting squished!

Assassin with Manbane is a great ide though.

@LambRogan: Argh! You were not meant to find my super-secret post of how to defeat your pseky warboss! Expect multi-assassin win

@ragnar: you are an evil scientist! I am interested in tour ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

As a side note, if you run a corsair unit with the frenzy banner, assassins gain the +1 attack as well...Psychology Manipulation FTW!

Manbane assaisins with ruins work just as well as the killing bolw ones. As he only has two wound and you have 5-7 attacks, all of which should hit. Then you're looking at rolling 5-7 wounds at str6, due to manbane, and only need 3's to wound. Plus you could always ignore him and maim the unit instead, this way you generate more res. If I know my heros/assassins can't win a fight I go after the unit instead. Plus you could just throw a hydra on the unit and sit back.

Kiwidru wrote:@ragnar: you are an evil scientist! I am interested in tour ideas, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Thank you


I'm so beyond confused what this means.

Hello again!

This is unrelated to the above post, but I was unsure where to post this.

Does anyone know if there is a thread regarding how the proposed 8th Edition rules will affect Dark Elves already?

If not, can anyone summarise it?