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So last night was my first game with my new IG army. And while I made some mistakes, like leaving my Valk out in the open and forgeting about it's scout move, I went with a static gun line and had minor luck with it. My army is roughly:
CCS w/ Melta, GL

PCS w/ GL
30 man blob squad w/ 3 GL

PCS w/ GL
1 Infantry w/ GL
1 Infantry w/ GL
HWS 2 AC and Mortar

Vets w/ GL and Flamer

Hellhound

2 Armored Sents w/ AC

LRBT w/ HB sponsons

Bassilk

Valk w/ HB sponsons

Marbo

1500 pts

I had the blob squad sitting on the objective with the CCS and another squad of ten guardsmans. Supporting them was the LRBT and the Hellhound. I pushed the LRBT forward and it lasted two turns, same fate for the Hellhound. By that time he had his Choas Berserkers coming in my face and everything from that point on was defensive reacting. So whats the secret to static gun lines?

i see very few powerful weapons.

a gunline needs big guns. 1 Basilisk isn't going to cut it.


i see a single Melta and no lascannon, unless that valk has one(not familiar with Valks and Vendettas)

your squads only have GLs. its a good weapon, but if you go that route your tanks need to have the anti-armor weapons, which they do not.


your list is anti-infantry. the 2 ACs will hardly worry transports as there aren't enough to do damage. you need to have more lascannons and melta.

I'm assuming you shot down his transports first?

Wow. I'm going to try not to be mean, but your list is all over the place, and seems to miss the point of static gunline.

Static gunlines, are, by definition unmoving and bring lots of guns. What you have is a hybrid list that's pretty woefully unoptimized.

heavy weapons for Platoon squads are dirt cheap and reasonably effective. That's the start of any gunline: lots of guns.

A principle rule of IG list construction is to never leave heavy or special weapon slots unused. There are exceptions (veterans in chimeras often skip a heavy), but there's no reason not to fill your squads with heavy weapon love.

Based on your list, I'm guessing you've built your army around what's in the infantry box, but you really do need meltas and plasma in a gunline, for heavy armor and heavy infantry, respectively.

If you're on a budget, keep in mind that heavy weapon boxes can be used for mutiple weapons, esp. the missle launcher. While not the best, I'd rather see an ML in each squad than nothing.

Hellhounds rarely last long, but the LRBT shouldn't be advancing. It has a long range with the BC, and needs to stand still to fire the HB sponsons.

Honestly, your list needs so much work, it's hard to explain how to play static gunline with the list you presented. there are ways to play what you have better, although even then you'd probably want to do some thing like max out flamers in the pcs (best 50pts you can spend, IMHO), and sprinkle in commissars and/or power weapons on sarges. Also, I wouldn't blob up unless it's KP, that way you can feed squads to assaults each turn, rather than lose 30 guys in a single sweeping assault.

In this list, you're not really using the second platoon for anything, you could combine it into one and then run two CCS's.

If you could list what models you have available, we might be able to help you put together something with some more punch.

As always, I recommend my codex review for new players:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/5th_Edition_Imperial_Guard_Codex_Review_%28Polonius%29

Polonius thanks for the, harsh but needed and welcomed, advice. All the IG models I have are listed in the army list, but budget really isn't an issue.
What your saying is adding more HWS with ML and LC's?
I relized after the game that trying to use the LRBT as a forward unit was a mistake and plan to hold in back next game.
No love for the Blob squad on objective based mission, they were my MVP dropping a Demon Price and a Nurgle demon.
I'll be taking a long look at your review, I have a lot to learn with this codex and general list building skill in general. Thanks again, anymore nuggets on info would be awesome.

You want heavy weapons, in general. They can be in HWS, but you should fill the platoons first. I would start with with one platoon armed with AC/GL, and one armed with LC/PG. I like PCS with flamers, but GLs are fine on foot.

HWSs should, in general, all have matching weapons. All (except heavy bolters and arugably missile Launchers) are good, with mortars providing cheap anti-infantry, ACs handling light vehicles while putting wounds on anything else, and LCs providing high strength low AP goodness.

In 5th, don't ever build a heavy bolter, and only build MLs if you get them free (like with a heavy weapon box). ACs are the most cost effective choice, and LCs are the most powerful.

A good use for the single mortar (although they can, IIRC, be built from the heavy weapon box without using the AC or LC tripod) is to stick it in a CCS, keep the squad out of LOS, and give orders and take pot shots.

In general, foot sloggers are going to outshoot the enemy, both at range (with heavy weapons) and close in (with specials and lasguns). the biggest weakness for foot guard is dealing with AV14, but you have a valk, so a melta vet squad could be put in there. Likewise, if you got the new Hellhound box and didn't glue anything in, you can switch it to a devil dog or banewolf. YMMV, as I have a palpable dislike for the basic HH that makes me a bit singular in IG circles.

Marbo, Valk and Hellhound don't exactly fit in a gunline list. Also for gunline you want a heavy in every squad, preferably either High Str or High ROF weapons. HWS only really work if you have several of them and plenty of other high priority targets(there are too many Str 6+ multi-shot weapons out there, most of which have AP 5 or better). Mortar teams can be somewhat effective by staying out of LOS while launching a relatively accurate Cluster of Blasts. You always want a Commissar in your Blob units; that way they do not get wiped out after the first turn of close combat.

I do 2 Platoons with 2 Lascannon/Plasmagun Squads in each(blobbed w/Commissar) and 3 Heavy Bolter/Grenade Launchers(also blobbed w/commissar) in my all infantry gunline list and it works very well, I have the volume of shots to effectively deal with orks and the Lascannons to help deal with enemy transports. I also take a CCS with Creed and Kell and an Autocannon for more transport busting and then a Plas/Las + a Harker Vet Squad to add extra firepower.

With the 2 Platoon Command Squads and Harker's Vets I can grab Objectives in non-annihilation missions and in annihilation I only have 9 KP on the field.

Alright how about this:

CCS w/ Melta

Platoon Alpha
PCS w/ GL
IS w/ GL
IS w/ GL
IS w/ GL
HWS w/ AC
HWS w/ LC

Platoon Bravo
PCS w/ GL
30 man blob w/ Commissar, GL
HWS w/AC

Vets w/ Flamer and GL

LRBT w/ Plasma Cannon sponsons

Basilisk

Valk w/ Rocket pods and HB sponsons

You can save 90 pts by putting those heavy weapons in the infantry squads. you could use the replaced infantry models as a penal legion squad. You have the same firepower, one less scoring unit, but you gain a scouting, stubborn unit.

Also, blob platoons, esp. with a commissar, are a better unit for orders due to their higher LD.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Marbo, Valk and Hellhound don't exactly fit in a gunline list.

I actually disagree with this, esp. about marbo. Marbo is amazing, and does something nothing else in a gunline can: hit something hidden. Marbo isn't a must have, but there are few times he's really inappropriate.

One thing I have found very, very effective in an Imperial Gunline is a near-maxxed Psyker Battle Squad in a Chimera. You keep them as hidden as possible and use them late in the Shooting phase, either as another nice Large Blast shot or - more likely - Weakening Resolve to ensure that whatever the most dangerous unit on the table is runs away.

On more than on occasion for me, they've been devastating with Marbo - use his ultra-precise demo charge to practically nuke a unit, force said unit to run, and because Marbo shows up so close (and between them and their table edge) they almost never stick around.

Polonius wrote:
A good use for the single mortar (although they can, IIRC, be built from the heavy weapon box without using the AC or LC tripod) is to stick it in a CCS, keep the squad out of LOS, and give orders and take pot shots.

The HWS box comes with 3 each, Mortar, Autocannon, Lascannon, and Heavy Bolter. Provided you have the guys, you can actually set up 12 heavy weapon models (the box comes with only 6 troopers).

As far as the Mortar without a tripod, just about anything it can lean against will work: sandbags, rocks, walls, the back of another trooper...
Another option for the Mortar is to use the ML bipod, and have all your ML's carried around by the troopers.

I loves me some Heavy Weapons

-Dave

I've never used that box. All my guys are old metals. Back when men were men and IG was a really expensive army...

Oh. Wait.

It's actually 15 weapons you get in the box - you forgot the ML, Dispatch. With 15 for 5 heavy weapons and regulars priced at the bottom for infantry, you can get lots of heavy weapons on the field for 'cheap'(er than other armies' infantry heavy weapons). Regulars for crew, missile launchers, and mortars, and a few weapons 'in transit'. Like me, it might force you to build a list around them though... I'm trying to learn the balance between HWS, the regulars to screen for them, and pie, in my heavy infantry company.

Dang it! How the hell did I forget those... I apologize for my math-fail.

I'm still building up my IG army...I currently have 6 assembled HW teams, and 15(!) unassembled. I'd like to field an army of just HWS, but I don't know of any ruleset that would support it. The fun part is when you use HWS to screen other HWS....Kill zones are fun

Dude, I hear you. I have 50 heavy weapons in my arsenal!

Well, theres an apocalypse formation for 'em...

I do NOT want to meet that formation with open ground around midfield objectives... it'll have a hard time actually WINNING, however.

Chap if your running a gunline, a PCS with 3/4 flamers great counter charge units, when the enemy gets to close to your line, they can run forward and wipe out the closing units as you can bet 90% of armies will try to get in your face, my friend who i play now specifically trys to wipe out my PCS before he gets too close, which buys me more time to shoot em up Also don't waste flamers on vets normally. make use of there BS 4.

acastonguay wrote:So whats the secret to static gun lines?

Don't play them.

The only way a gunline will work is if you basically destroy your entire opponent before they have a chance to close range. This was doable in older editions. In 5th ed, however, infantry sprint, transports are cheap as chips, and every army has some very serious stuff that can outflank. This means that it is no longer possible to mute your enemy before they show up. This means that your gunline will fail, and fail often.

And this is also ignoring the fact that the metagame changed in such a way where you basically automatically loose a third of your games straight away (seize ground) and will have a very tough time of capture and control (where you will do nothing to their objective, and they only have to contest yours), and kill points (as you're a guard player).

Going against the entire metagame shift of the game is a recipe for disaster. If you still want to take big guns you can, it's just that you have to do it right (cf. a leafblower list), instead of doing it old.

As a semi-counterpoint to what Ailaros said, static gunlines ARE playable, it's just that your army can no longer consist of nothing but static gunlines. It used to be that Guard could just stack platoons in cover, field a couple Basilisks, and just wait for the Kill Points to come to them; now there are a lot more ways to threaten units like that, and you won't be likely to win by just sitting around.

That said, a large static gunline makes an excellent "core" of a Guard army, which is then supported by more mobile units. What with units like Creed, Al'Rahem, Vendettas/Valkyries, Masters of the Fleet/Astropaths in your CCS, and even Scout Sentinels and Penal Legions, Guard armies have more opportunities for Outflanking than any other, and can easily put units precisely where they want them. Your static gunline holds your main home objectives and spreads high-strength fire across the board, your faster units maneuver around and intercept the enemy advance, making sure the Assaults happen where you want them to, and not in your front lines.

You can have two well-equipped platoons with dozens of infantry for around 700pts., meaning that in an average 1500pt. game, you still have more than half your points to spend on fancy tanks, planes, and so on. For smaller games, simply scale your platoons back proportionately, maintaining the same balance between static and mobile units.

okay, so it's POSSIBLE to make work some times. The problem is that you are relying on your opponent to be bad with list building/movement. If your opponent is an ace with a drop pod list, you're toast, every time.

Obviously adding in some mobility is good, but why not add a lot more? Having some mobility allows part of your force to react to events while half your force is just sitting there hopeless to do anything but hope for sufficient carnage. If your whole force is mobile, then you get the option of sitting still with some stuff and attacking with some stuff, OR attacking with all stuff. Movement is basically the freedom to adapt to events on the field. When your whole army is static, like a gunline, your ability to adapt is very poor. As the Tactica Imperium says "A commander who puts his faith in heavy weaponry alone will be outmaneuvered". Only moreso in 5th ed.

And that's not to say that it's never worth it to bring ANY static support stuff, it's just that this should be brought to SUPPORT an army, not form its core.

Ailaros wrote:And that's not to say that it's never worth it to bring ANY static support stuff, it's just that this should be brought to SUPPORT an army, not form its core.

As I stated in the other thread about this (I feel like we're having the same conversation on two different phone lines! ), I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the "core" of your army to not move much in a Guard list, considering that in most missions your main job is to "hold the line" around an objective. Preparing your list for such situations just seems like smart planning to me.

It is true, of course, that points can be scored by a single Troop unit, and that masses of emplaced infantry aren't absolutely necessary. If you wanted to, you could hold home objectives with a single Vet squad in a Chimera. However, that Chimera is going to be the focus of all your opponent's attention, and to me it seems worth it to add some "padding" in the form of multiple squads, which then gives you the option for powerful guns as an added bonus. If you're going to be sitting around all game, anyway, you might as well shoot stuff, right?

Troops have the unique job of holding objectives, and as such, the expectation is that Troop units will, at least in part, be static in many missions. Imperial Guard players get some pretty fantastic deals in terms of quantity of Troops for a relatively small investment of points, so they have the option to focus those slots on holding, while the rest of the army goes out, drives around, kills things and contests the enemy's space. This is why I say that a static gunline does have a place in many Guard lists, as long as it is properly supported.

but thinking about "holding the line" is bad. It encourages you to place a lot of dudes on a single objective and then send a token force at any others.

On a capture and control mission, this is bad, as you're not posing a credible threat to an opponent's objective, while your opponent only needs to contest your objective in order to be able to win (an easy thing to do with all the mobility about).

On seize ground, this is also bad. Sure, you may control the heck out of one objective, but it doesn't matter if your opponent ignores your blob of dudes and just captures the other ones.

As for adding "padding" to troops that are holding objectives, I agree, troops should be supported. This doesn't mean that you need to bring immobile troops. Mobile troops pad things up just as well, but are actually useful for other purposes.

as for "holding" objectives being a stationary act, I think you're forgetting that before the "holding" comes the "taking", which requires mobility. Furthermore, opponents who want to get you off of an objective and put their own troops on it are going to have to move closer to you, into the effectiveness of special weapons.

As such, I really don't see what's gained by having immobile troops, other than a small measure of firepower, while I can see the great deal lost with regards to the current metagame by keeping them immobile.

Heres my 2 cents: a gun line cant survive without a good spread of AT or something big and scary. Im sure theres a good reason for you doing it, but in a gunline blobbing squads only makes things much worse. Sure, orders are received much easier, but so are sweeping advances. Lets say Kharn the betrayer and a squad of 10 beserkers run towards your gunline. you fire with your 30 blob squad and kill 8, and theres 2 beserkers and kharn left. they will then kill roughly 7 guardsmen if not more, and sweeping advance the remaining 23 guardsmen, quite easily. We guard players REALLY dont want this. Also TANKS! you need more tanks. Sure hellhounds dont last but as it has been said earlier, keep your LRBT where it is. Investing in a Manticore will go a long way in stopping 30 man squads of orks or the like from surviving and smashing into your line.