Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

OK - Creed's "tactical genius" rule gives the scouts ability to "any unit in your army" - can that include inquisitional allies?

Also, oddly enough it says you can give orders to "any friendly, non vehicle unit". I'm just assuming that that doesn't include grey knights, right?

Orders, no, based on the GW IG FAQ.

Q. Can orders be issued to allied Witch Hunter
and/or Daemonhunter units?
A. No, orders can only be issued to non-vehicle
units from Codex: Imperial Guard. I think Sisters
of Battle, Grey Knights and in particular
Inquisitors would have some serious objections
with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them
what to do!

Crred and Outflank, probably not, using the same FAQ as a precedent. Should only matter for a few more months anyways, until then, discuss with opponent pre-game.

I'd disagree on the outflank thing because GW DID faq guard already and made it clear about orders. On the other hand they didn't change the tactical genius in the FAQ so I'd say it works becasue if it was an issue they would have changed it. Although I do agree that allies will be gone soon. I think the reason they are keeping it in there is mostly for apoc games where you may have allied units that are part of your army.

Also to support this further I look at a stracken. His power affects all units in a radius guard allies and even freindly teammate's units. ymmv

but tactical genius is special rule, not order

However, both rules are to 'friendly' units. Suddenly, they decided that allied DH/WH units are not friendly units. But it's true, they didn't FAQ it, so who knows? That's why I suggest discussing it.

Tactical genius is a Special rule that can be given to ANY friendly unit.

if Creed can give it to a Warhound titan then he can give it to Grey Knights.

Yes, it is something that he can apply to any "friendly unit". And Orders can be issued to any non-vehicle "friendly unit". See the similarity? That's all I'm saying. GW has defined "friendly unit" for orders to mean units from the IG codex. Now whether that applies across the board or not, who knows? Even the fluff from the FAQ can be applied.

"I think Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and in particular Inquisitors would have some serious objections with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them what to do!"

Creed: "Grand Master Highmucketymuk, I want you to outflank the enemy and come in from one of the sides of the battle."

GMH: "Who are you to tell me how to use my forces!!"

I'd imagine that GW sees orders as a special rule that applies to both officers and the units they give them too. When Creed is using Tactical Genius, he has a plan, explains to whatever unit he wants, and the plan is carried out.

Orders are just calling plays that the units already know, or that utilize training at the company level and seconded units wouldn't get. To use a real life example: an artillery captain can get far more accuracy and volume of fire out of his own men than he could out of allied, but unfamiliar guns.

In short, it's not that inquisitorial allies don't all Ig commanders to tell them what to do, but rather that they don't allow IG commanders to tell them how to do it.

don_mondo wrote:

"I think Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and in particular Inquisitors would have some serious objections with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them what to do!"

Creed: "Grand Master Highmucketymuk, I want you to outflank the enemy and come in from one of the sides of the battle."

GMH: "Who are you to tell me how to use my forces!!"

Creed: "I am CREEEEEEEEEEE"

GMH: "What?"

Creed: "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

random sister: "He won't stop till you do it."

GMH: "Fine whatever we will outflank."

Creed: "EED"

Maybe so. I do see what you're saying, but 'friendly unit' is 'friendly unit'. All I'm going by is how the rule and FAQ are written.
All that said, sure, I'd allow it. Wouldn't use it myself tho with my IG. That's why i recommend that it be discussed, so that there's no heartburn.

the FAQ doesn't define friendly unit in the Tactical Genious rule.

it does specifically say Orders don't apply.


therefore Tactical Genious may apply to any uinit in your army, DH or otherwise.

Sigh........
You don't get it, do you? OK. Who can receive orders? "Friendly units", right? The FAQ says allied units cannot receive orders, therefor you can draw the conclusion that allied units are NOT 'friendly units'. FAQ says that only units from the IG codex can receive orders, therefor you can draw the conclusion that only units from the IG codex are 'friendly units'. So the FAQ does indeed define "Friendly Unit", by laying out who can and who cannot receive orders.

So who can Creed give the Outflank ability to? "Friendly unit". So does the aforementioned GW definition from the FAQ apply or not? I dunno. Ask GW. Or just discuss it with your opponent beforehand.........

OTOH, don't most people play that Vulkan's ability works with Sisters?

I think that the RAW here is pretty clear, not horibbly abusive, not an affront to fluff or background, and makes sense. The exception for orders also makes sense.

Yes, most do, as his (Vulkan) ability affects all weapons in the army, altho the clause about losing Combat Tactics leads some to believe that you should have to have CT to gain the weapon abilities. IMO, they phrased it that way so that it would work for dreadnought/landspeeder flamers and such. But that's a whole 'nuther discussion.


Like I said earlier, I'd allow the Outflank if someone wanted to use it against me. Hell, when the IG codex first came out and pre-FAQ, one of our club members insisted I could issue orders to allied units. I said I didn't think it should be allowed, I thought it was too over the top. But we tried it out. Yeah, try Creed giving a Callidus Assassin Furious Charge........... I6 ST5. That SW special character never stood a chance. I was glad when they put out the FAQ and removed temptation from my path!!

But anyways, (IMO) you can't just make a blanket statement that the Outflank is fine and dandy, as it can be interpreted otherwise due to the FAQ. It's a potential issue, and something that should be discussed pre-game. I think we can all agree that potential issues should be discussed and cleared up pre-game, right?

don_mondo wrote:Sigh........
You don't get it, do you? OK. Who can receive orders? "Friendly units", right? The FAQ says allied units cannot receive orders, therefor you can draw the conclusion that allied units are NOT 'friendly units'. FAQ says that only units from the IG codex can receive orders, therefor you can draw the conclusion that only units from the IG codex are 'friendly units'. So the FAQ does indeed define "Friendly Unit", by laying out who can and who cannot receive orders.

So who can Creed give the Outflank ability to? "Friendly unit". So does the aforementioned GW definition from the FAQ apply or not? I dunno. Ask GW. Or just discuss it with your opponent beforehand.........

thats quite the conclusion to jump to...

While orders can be issued to "friendly units" gw EXPLICITLY stated that Allied inqui forces (GK/SOB/ETC) cannot be issued ORDERS under the EXCEPTION that they would not take orders from an IG commander, and in this FAQ they ruled CONTRARY to the general RAW to say that ONLY units from Codex Imperial Guard can be issued orders... this does not mean that only things that can be issued orders are "Friendly units" just that in the case of issuing orders, change the wording of "Friendly units" to "Friendly Units from Codex: Imperial Guard".


You are effectively saying that because a square is a rectangle, all rectangles are squares....

If what you are saying is true, then the mystic strategy, that wins tounements, would be deemed invalid (as the autocannons that the mystics are deeming as "Friendly units" fall under a different codex, and would not be able to be assigned.)

Creed can, and should, nominate a squad of GKs with his Tac Genius special rule. That is how the RAW reads, omission on entry from the FAQ implies, what the Leaf-Blower Mystic strat relies apon (and is evident of), and what any TO worth his/her salt would rule if the issue were to ever arise.

Hope that helps,
-DAR

I agree, I just think most evidence points to it being allowed. If I were a TO, I'd allow it.

I wouldn't be shocked if I weren't' allowed to use it, but then I don't see myself using Creed, let alone with inquisitorial troops (where would I find the points for actual guardsmen...).

Creeds rule says nothing about friendly units.

"During your deployment choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. That unit has scouts for the duraton of the battle."

So this logical fallicy about friendly units that you're trying toget us to swallow doesnt work.

No DAR, I'm not saying square/rectangle analogy.
I'm saying friendly unit equals friendly unit. Why is this so hard to grasp? It's the same two words in each rule. Sure, they gave us a fluff reason in the FAQ, that GK/Inq/whatever wouldn't let IG boss them around. But the bottom line is that they decided that only IG units from the codex qualify as a 'friendly unit' for orders. Whether that meant for any IG ability that uses the term 'friendly unit', again, I dunno. You'll have to get an answer from GW on that. All I'm saying (again) is that it's not a cut-and-dried answer. It can be interpreted either way. So it's probably a good idea to discuss it beforehand.

The Mystic point is a good one tho, altho fluffwise, I can see the Inquisition telling IG what to do a lot easier than I can see IG telling the Inquisition what to do. But then again, DH doesn't have any FAQ saying that their abilities only work on DH units, do they........?

don_mondo wrote:But the bottom line is that they decided that only IG units from the codex qualify as a 'friendly unit' for orders.

No, they decided that orders cannot be issued to anyone outside of the IG codex.

Any talk about orders is completely negligible. The second you purchase Inquisitorial allies for your army they become friendly units; tactical genius allows you to "choose a single infantry or vehicle unit in your army. that unit has the scouts special rule for the duration of the battle." RAW

Being as the inquisitors are now part of your army I see no reason to doubt that you may outflank a landraider full of grey knight terminators.

That being said, enjoy it while it lasts. because allies are going away once the new Daemonhunters dex comes out in 20XX

Melchiour wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

"I think Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights and in particular Inquisitors would have some serious objections with a lowly Imperial Guardsman telling them what to do!"

Creed: "Grand Master Highmucketymuk, I want you to outflank the enemy and come in from one of the sides of the battle."

GMH: "Who are you to tell me how to use my forces!!"

Creed: "I am CREEEEEEEEEEE"

GMH: "What?"

Creed: "EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

random sister: "He won't stop till you do it."

GMH: "Fine whatever we will outflank."

Creed: "EED"

Can't stop laughing!!!!!

Back on target I think that it should apply to all friendly units in the army no matter who they are.

It doesn't say anywhere in the guard codex whome orders can be issued to. It just says:

"A number of models in the Imperial Guard have the ability to issue 1 or more orders each turn."
But with Creed, it clearly states "in your army". Not in allied armies, just your army.

When you ally in the Inquisition units they become part of your army, they take up your Force Org. spots after all.

You know that just because Mystics (DH) can order ACs(IG) to do something does not mean that it works the other way around. THe Witch Hunter Codex clearly says that SMs will not work in an army with SoBs, yet amazingly enough SoBs can work as allies to SMs. In this specific case the fact that an IG commander can not give orders to an Inquisition unit is not germane. If you want to get technical I suppose you could say non-IG units in an IG army are "allied units", thus different than "friendly units."
The rule for Creed is any unit in the army. Since Creed's ability affects "any" unit and not just "friendly" units then it should work.

This is why I tend to ignore the bits of the GW FAQs that ignore RaW and aren't an errata. They just cause more problems than they fix.

felixthecat345 wrote:
But with Creed, it clearly states "in your army". Not in allied armies, just your army.

There is no such thing as an official "Allied army" in warhammer 40k 5th edition. The rules for Allied armies were in 3rd edition (and maybe 4th, I'd have to re-read the old rulebook) and in the Apocalypse expansion book.

Now, as per the "Book of guidelines" 'rule' in the 5th edition book, there is nothing that says that if you and your friends want to do a 2v2 game of 40k, that you can't, and as such you would be using multiple armies in a standard game of 40k (even though there are currently 0 rules in 5th edition to support this type of play), that being said, I'd like to see you try and bring a list that was 1500 points of tau and 1000 points of Dark Eldar (as 'allied armies')and use it in a 'ard boys event, or any real GT for that matter.

that being said...

NOTHING in the "using daemonhunters as allies" rules says anything about your IG choices and your Daemonhunters choices as being seperate armies... in reality, they aren't. They are merely seperate branches of the same Imperial military working togeather as one collective force. (Which IIRC it specifically mentions). If you are taking Daemon hunters/witch hunters as allies, they are merely an extension of your codex in terms of what you may or may not field, the FAQ ruling for orders made the soft line hard in only this specific instance stating that you may ONLY issue orders to the allowable units in Codex: Imperial Guard. This does not set presidence for what is or is not a friendly unit...

Another good example of people mistaking presidence...

Dark Eldar Raiders/Ravagers with Torture Amps allow them to Tank Shock but accoring to FAQ do NOT allow them to ram...

People were mistaking this ruling to mean that ANY non tank vehicle with an upgrade that allows you to tankshock may not ram... so much so that INAT had to rule that Ork Trukks with Reinforced Ram are allowed to in fact Ram (however obvious that might seem...)

Creeds Tac Genius is not the same as an issued order. An issued order is basically an IG officer saying "Do this, I command it". Tac Genius is more like a suggestion by Creed, the model gains the ABILITY to scout/outflank but it is not REQUIRED to do so, picture this as Creed offering a suggestion to the Inqui commander before the battle begins, and the Inqui respecting Creed's tac genius. Also keep in mind, the "fluff provided" says that anyone in the Inqui would not likely take orders from a 'lowly IG commander" which Creed most CERTAINLY is not, he is the supreme commanding officer of the Cadian gate... if anything Daemonhunters (GKs specifically) would be HONORED to take orders from quite possibly the most influential bane to Daemons (and Chaos as a whole) since the Emperor of mankind himself...

Not to mention, if you take the 'Fluff' the FAQ states too literally, technically you would be unable to move/shoot/use your Allied forces, as you as the player are an Imperial Guard Commander (Your list is that of Imperial Guard and when push comes to shove, you are the commander, as you are the player moving the models around). And I don't recall any rules that allow you to move "non-friendly units" (Which you claim Allies are) other then Lash of Submission and Pavane of Slaanesh (and the new Magna Claw of course)... unless your Commisars are actually Chaos Sorcerers of Slaanesh in disguise of course... But then just being able to MOVE your Daemonhunters should be the least of your concerns

Anyone who actually disobeys creed is pretty dumb.

Creed: Outflank that Ork mob and give cover fire for the bikers. Take out enemy tanks if you can and soften up resistance for the Cadian approach.
SM: No! I want to hit them with my sword!