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What is the LOS of a vehicle as it relates to infiltrating range... I am not sure how to explain my question if I am behind a Rhino where do I measure the range from the hull or from the Stormbolter in the front? and for a Landraider without a weapon on the top?? and if he can't draw LOS on me from any of the weapons?

I have been playing it 18'' from the hull or base of walkers but I was watching History channel and they were talking about how tanks have a hard time actually seeing troops taht get near them.. espcially the APCs that look like Rhinos..

I wonder what you all will say about this..

You're trying to apply real world to a game mechanic. It's over 18" from the vehicle hull.

I think he means if he's out of LOS of everything he can be 12" away and trying to determine where LOS would be calculated from a vehicle.

No, he's asking if he can park his inifltrators just over 12" behind a vehicle, ie in it's 'blind spot' without them actually being out of LOS. The answer is no. If the vehicle can 'see' them from anywhere on it's hull, then they must infiltrate over 18" away. Bear in mind also that if ANY model in the opposing army can see them, the over 18" bit kicks in.

So would the arse end of a rhino peeking around a building have LOS to an infiltrating unit even though the rhino would not have LOS for shooting?

Exactly, there is no LOS defined for vehicles at all. Just the arc of fire from the weapons.

I think it's a reasonable question... at work right now so don't have the exact infiltrator wording or vehicle shooting wording.

If memory serves Infiltrators can place 12" if they are not in LOS of an enemy and vehicles draw LOS from their weapon mounts so... maybe the OP has a point.

And what's the LOS of the driver who stepped out to take a leak just before the game starts?
18" from the vehicle.

Durzod wrote: And what's the LOS of the driver who stepped out to take a leak just before the game starts?
18" from the vehicle.

The rules don't cover the driver so he doesn't exist, and the only time LOS is mentioned for vehicles is in the shooting phase from the weapons. I will take a look at the rulebook when I'm not at work and see of there is a more cogent argument one way or the other.

Here ya go:
Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed. If both sides have infiltrators, the players roll-off and the winner decides who goes first, and then alternate deploying these units. Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them. This includes inside a building (see page 83), as long as the building is more than 12" from any enemy unit. Alternatively, they may be set up anywhere on the table that is more than 18" from any enemy unit, even in plain sight.

Re vehicle LOS. Just because something isn't in a vehicle's weapon Arc of Sight (ie drawing LOS from the weapon) does not mean the the vehicle cannot draw LOS to the unit. Weapon Arc of Sight applies when shooting. So yes, if that rear bumper can see the infiltrators, they need to be over 18" away.

Admiral-Badruck wrote:What is the LOS of a vehicle as it relates to infiltrating range... I am not sure how to explain my question if I am behind a Rhino where do I measure the range from the hull or from the Stormbolter in the front? and for a Landraider without a weapon on the top?? and if he can't draw LOS on me from any of the weapons?

I have been playing it 18'' from the hull or base of walkers but I was watching History channel and they were talking about how tanks have a hard time actually seeing troops taht get near them.. espcially the APCs that look like Rhinos..

I wonder what you all will say about this..

hull. if a part of the vehicle hull can see one of your infiltrators, then they have to be placed 18" away.

What page number can I find the LOS rules for vehicle hulls? Or any section that talks about what a vehicle can see other than shooting LOS?

Line of Sight rules are on page 16, vehicle Arc of Sight rules are on 58-59.

And there is nothing that tells us what ANY model can see other than when it's shooting.....................

Presumably, you'd go with what the passengers could draw line of sight to, and what the vehicle could draw line of sight to, if they were to fire.

I'm not sure how "The LoS rules are only defined for shooting, therefore you should determine LoS using these rules not in the rulebook (LoS from the hull)" is supposed to make sense.

don_mondo wrote:Line of Sight rules are on page 16, vehicle Arc of Sight rules are on 58-59.

And there is nothing that tells us what ANY model can see other than when it's shooting.....................

Isn't that the exact point of this exercise though? A vehicle draws LoS with its weapons. Now you might be able to draw a RaI argument here, but RaW if I'm out of the firing arc of all of a vehicles weapons then I'm out of its LoS.

Neconilis wrote:Isn't that the exact point of this exercise though? A vehicle draws LoS with its weapons. Now you might be able to draw a RaI argument here, but RaW if I'm out of the firing arc of all of a vehicles weapons then I'm out of its LoS.

I'd even go as far as to say a unit embarked in a vehicle could draw LOS from Fire Points and force the 18" Infiltration. That is supportable by rules and breaks no rules.

The claim that a vehicle can draw LOS from a point not a weapon mount or fire point is not supported by the rulebook anywhere that I can recall. It sounds like people are confusing the rules for drawing LOS *TO* a vehicle for the rules drawing LOS *FROM* a vehicle.

You can draw LOS *TO* any point on a vehicle's hull. The vehicle can only draw LOS *FROM* weapon mounts.

In short, you measure from the hull. You cannot deploy in a "Blind spot".

If you try to claim this, I will point out that I have instead decided to call Exterminatus, and autowin.

Neconilis wrote:
The claim that a vehicle can draw LOS from a point not a weapon mount or fire point is not supported by the rulebook anywhere that I can recall. It sounds like people are confusing the rules for drawing LOS *TO* a vehicle for the rules drawing LOS *FROM* a vehicle.

You can draw LOS *TO* any point on a vehicle's hull. The vehicle can only draw LOS *FROM* weapon mounts.

Durzod writes:

Ah, the old "I can see you but you can't see me" ploy. I'd forgotten that one.

(pardon my technical ignorance, but I couldn't get my comment out of that blasted dotted line box)

So you have absolutely no rules to back it up, just "I'm right because" ??

Who hacked Gwar's account?!

The problem is, there are no real rules to cover the situation.


For what it's worth, it doesn't have to be a vehicle. Put the infiltrators behind an infantry unit. Does the infantry unit have LOS?

We don't know.

The LOS rules in the shooting phase rely on also being able to turn the firer to face the target before tracing LOS. When you're told to find LOS in other phases, we aren't told we can turn the models to face... and the rules don't define an arc of sight for when the model can not be turned to face.

Likewise with vehicles... we're told we can turn the weapons to point at the target when firing them. When drawing LOS at other times... who knows?

So a unit behind an infantry model, or not directly in front of a vehicle's weapon, so far as the rules are concerned, is probably out of LOS. But that's a little silly, and makes infiltrating up close far too easy.

So my impression would be that we're supposed to assume a 360 degree arc of sight, as if the model was drawing a LOS in the shooting phase.

insaniak wrote:The problem is, there are no real rules to cover the situation.


For what it's worth, it doesn't have to be a vehicle. Put the infiltrators behind an infantry unit. Does the infantry unit have LOS?

We don't know.

The LOS rules in the shooting phase rely on also being able to turn the firer to face the target before tracing LOS. When you're told to find LOS in other phases, we aren't told we can turn the models to face... and the rules don't define an arc of sight for when the model can not be turned to face.

Likewise with vehicles... we're told we can turn the weapons to point at the target when firing them. When drawing LOS at other times... who knows?

So a unit behind an infantry model, or not directly in front of a vehicle's weapon, so far as the rules are concerned, is probably out of LOS. But that's a little silly, and makes infiltrating up close far too easy.

So my impression would be that we're supposed to assume a 360 degree arc of sight, as if the model was drawing a LOS in the shooting phase.

That would still leave us assuming a 360 LOS from the points on a vehicle you would normally draw LOS from. Using the rhino as an example, if the back of the vehicle was visible to the infiltrating unit but the storm bolter was completely blocked from view would you draw LOS from any part of the hull or the weapon/firepoints?

zeshin wrote:Using the rhino as an example, if the back of the vehicle was visible to the infiltrating unit but the storm bolter was completely blocked from view would you draw LOS from any part of the hull or the weapon/firepoints?

I wouldn't. But if we're having to make up rules anyway, drawing LOS from any part of the tank for this specific purpose is equally as valid a way of playing it as drawing LOS from the weapons.

But frankly, asking a little green man to determine line of sight is just as reasonable as drawing line of sight from the hull, and just as supported by the rules, too.

Line of sight as if it were the shooting phase is less of a stretch than line of sight from a guy's foot or a vehicle's hull.

OK, back in front of my rules book. And I quote (emphasis mine):

BGB wrote: INFILTRATE

Infiltrators may be set up anywhere on the table that IS more than 12" from any enemy unit, as long as no deployed enemy unit can draw a line of sight to them.

This sure as hell doesn't sound like drawing LOS *FROM* the infiltrators to any point on an enemy tank. If any deployed enemy can draw LOS to the infiltrators is the qualifier. How do we draw LOS? That's covered in the rulebook. Now yes you do have that whole issue of rotating the troops because their eyes are in the front and all that silliness, but I'm pretty sure we all let Wraithguard shoot even though they don't have eyes at all.

The POINT here and the answer to the question at hand is you don't draw LOS from a vehicle's fender. You draw it from their weapon mounts. Page 58, Vehicles Shooting says to trace LOS from the weapon mounting and back to the target to see if it's blocked by terrain or models. If blocking terrain won't let me draw LOS to fire a weapon why should it let me deter an Infiltrator?

I submit there is at least a rule to support the idea that LOS is drawn from vehicle weapon mounts for Infiltration purposes. The idea that it's simply to any point on the vehicle is not supported anywhere I can find in the rulebook, Gwar! notwithstanding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:But if we're having to make up rules anyway, drawing LOS from any part of the tank for this specific purpose is equally as valid a way of playing it as drawing LOS from the weapons.

I have the vehicle LOS rules and the Infiltrate rules to support the supposition that the vehicle must draw LOS from it's weapon mounts. I didn't have to make anything up.

Where's the rule that says that if an Infiltrator can see your fender he must push back 18"? I can't find it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

zeshin wrote:Using the rhino as an example, if the back of the vehicle was visible to the infiltrating unit but the storm bolter was completely blocked from view would you draw LOS from any part of the hull or the weapon/firepoints?

There's the obvious example. If a deployed Rhino and/or it's passengers couldn't shoot at the Infiltrators then they can't deter them from deploying at 12".

And if it's open topped? (Shut up, Durzod! Stop pouring gasoline on the fire!)

The Green Git wrote:I have the vehicle LOS rules and the Infiltrate rules to support the supposition that the vehicle must draw LOS from it's weapon mounts. I didn't have to make anything up.

Well, yes, you do. You need to make up a rule that allows the enemy unit to turn and face the infiltrators.

Otherwise, the rules simply don't cover how to draw LOS to a target that is not directly in front of you unless you are about to shoot at it.

Where's the rule that says that if an Infiltrator can see your fender he must push back 18"? I can't find it.

There isn't one. Nor is that how I would play, as I already said.

What I said was that when you find a situation that the rules don't cover, any house rule that you decide to use is a valid one.

Durzod wrote:And if it's open topped? (Shut up, Durzod! Stop pouring gasoline on the fire!)

You measure LOS from the hull as stated in the open topped exceptions to the regular vehicle rules.

insaniak wrote:Well, yes, you do. You need to make up a rule that allows the enemy unit to turn and face the infiltrators.

Why would we? Admittedly it might be fair and/or even reasonable, but the game is certainly capable of functioning without such a stipulation in place.

Neconilis wrote:Why would we? Admittedly it might be fair and/or even reasonable, but the game is certainly capable of functioning without such a stipulation in place.

I was responding to the assumption that the unit you're trying to deploy your infiltrators near has a 360 degree LOS. That would require a house rule, because models in 40K don't have a 360 degree LOS.

So we need a house rule, if you wish to play that way, whereby models either have a 360 degree line of sight, or can turn in the deployment phase to face the infiltrating unit.



If you're not playing that way, and assuming that the LOS is determined solely on the basis of the model's facing as they are deployed, then you have another problem, as non-vehicle models do not have a defined arc of sight. So we're left with either trying to trace a line of sight from the model's eyes (determining how far to the side they can see based on how far around you can go before the model's own head gets in the way), or assuming that models can only see directly to their front, or some other similar house rule that determines an actual arc of vision.


That's the thing, so far as LOS is concerned, the game as written doesn't function for anything other than shooting. The LOS rules are written under the assumption that the model trying to draw LOS is about to shoot, has eyes, and can be turned to face their target.

In practice, (at least from my experience) people tend to draw LOS from the model's head rather than specifically from their eyes, and an arc of vision in most cases doesn't matter because the model can usually be turned to face the target... so people either turn the models or leave them as is and assume a 360 degree arc of sight.

To my mind, the same should carry over to things like determining the distance for infiltrators, for Rage, for Tankbustas' Glory Hogs rule, or for a Chaos Dreadnought's Crazed rule... either assume the model can turn to determine LOS, or assume they can see 360 degrees.

I see what you're saying, I was still thinking solely of vehicles. Though yes, most people assume a 360 degree LoS for non vehicles as it tends to effectively play out that way. You're also right with LoS only coming up and being referenced in the shooting phase which causes more issues than just this one, like how is Rage supposed to work?

Anyway, when taking non vehicles into account you definitely need a house rule for them as RaW doesn't cover it effectively. No argument there.