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Hi guys

Did a search of this subforum and did not find an answer.

As i understand it, your opponent must wait till you finish shooting from 1 unit to make his saves on the total number of wounds he must save, right? but say you shoot more than 1 unit at that squad (for purpose say it's tactical squad of marines being shot by lootas) let's say 2x loota squads (of any number) must he wait till your finished shooting all your unit's at that squad to then make his save. or is it wait till you finish per units shooting at that unit. as imagined with shooting marines your want to force them to make as many saving throws as possible to kill them. however they can stack them on minority weapons(if they wish, if your wounds outnumber squad size), such as metla guns ML etc, but the majority must be spread, so in other words still making it more difficult, rather than, waiting for deaths then stacking on what's left which would mean, more wounds to be stacked out to there prefrance not on or visa versa majority....

hope that makes sense.
Cheers

Shooting is done sequentially, unit by unit.

So no, he doesn't have to wait for the end of your shooting phase to make saves. He will make saves after each unit.

Vreith wrote:Hi guys

Did a search of this subforum and did not find an answer.

As i understand it, your opponent must wait till you finish shooting from 1 unit to make his saves on the total number of wounds he must save, right? but say you shoot more than 1 unit at that squad (for purpose say it's tactical squad of marines being shot by lootas) let's say 2x loota squads (of any number) must he wait till your finished shooting all your unit's at that squad to then make his save. or is it wait till you finish per units shooting at that unit. as imagined with shooting marines your want to force them to make as many saving throws as possible to kill them. however they can stack them on minority weapons(if they wish, if your wounds outnumber squad size), such as metla guns ML etc, but the majority must be spread, so in other words still making it more difficult, rather than, waiting for deaths then stacking on what's left which would mean, more wounds to be stacked out to there prefrance not on or visa versa majority....

hope that makes sense.
Cheers

As insaniak said, shooting is done sequentially, one unit at a time.

All shooting from a single unit however is resolved simultaneously.

So what you can do is fire a Lascannon at a rhino, blow it up, then have another unit shoot the disembarked unit.
What you cannot do is fire a Lascannon at a rhino, blow it up, then fire the rest of the unit at the disembarked passengers.

Gwar! wrote:As insaniak said, shooting is done sequentially, one unit at a time.

All shooting from a single unit however is resolved simultaneously.

So what you can do is fire a Lascannon at a rhino, blow it up, then have another unit shoot the disembarked unit.
What you cannot do is fire a Lascannon at a rhino, blow it up, then fire the rest of the unit at the disembarked passengers.

thanks for the clarification guys

More importantly the same unit shooing disembarked passengers, ive had that happen to me once with my boyz, only question to it though is, does power of the machine spirit make a difference? ie shoots a lascannon blows up a trukk, then machine spirit, shoots assault cannon kills 4 boyz that disembarked?

Vreith wrote:does power of the machine spirit make a difference? ie shoots a lascannon blows up a trukk, then machine spirit, shoots assault cannon kills 4 boyz that disembarked?

Nope, it's exactly the same. PotMS lets the vehicle fire an extra weapon. It doesn't count as a different unit shooting.

Can someone post where in the RB this is explained.... If i can prove it as RAW, Im gonna have a field-day at the next FLGS tourney!!

gregor_xenos wrote:Can someone post where in the RB this is explained.... If i can prove it as RAW, Im gonna have a field-day at the next FLGS tourney!!

The shooting chapter.

Or were you talking about PotMS? If so, the shooting chapter too. PotMS lets you fire 1 gun at another unit. You have to pick a legal target at the time it fires. Since the unit that just left it's transport is NOT a legal target at that time, you cannot select them.

Let me be more clear on this because this looks muddy.

PoTMS allows you to shot 1 more weapon or fire at a seperate unit. Lets say it's a land raider w/ Lascannons, Heavy Bolter and a Multi-Melta.

When the owner fires the Landraider he must say what is being fire by all weapons.

Example.
2 Shots of Lascannons and the Multi Melta at the Hammerhead. PoTMS the Heavy Bolters into the FW's out of cover.

You can not wait to see if you blow the Hammerhead up and then switch the PoTMS over to another vehicle.

Wounds and Allocations
This is very tricky and I'll go over some rough rules because people can really abuse this. "I say abuse but it's legal."

I have a 6 man squad of marines and they get fired at by a Squad of 10 Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasmaguns and a Plasma Pistol. My squad is wounded 3 times by the AP 2 shots and 6 more times by Bolters.

The wounds are allocated at one time. Do not let the guy tell you to pick your 3 dead marines before armour rolls are made.

R= Regular, M=Meltagun, S=Seargent.
A=Armour Save, W=Non saveable wound

R-A,A
R-A,W
R-A
R-A
M-W,W
S-A

Doing it this way saved you 1 model but with 2 wound models it can be a headache.

Nob w/ Power Ax, A
Nob w/ Power Ax, Stick Bomb, A
Nob w/ Power Claw, A
Nob w/ Power Claw, Stick Bomb, A
Nob w/ Choppa, W
Nob w/ Choppa, Stick Bomb, W
Nob w/ Big Choppa, W
Nob w/ Big Choppa, Stick Bomb, A
Painboy, A

So as you can see not one Nob is killed w/ 3 of them wounded because you can't use FNP on AP 2 weapons.

i paly it you allocate the non-saveable wounds first - you have to try remove causalties where possible

you should lose at least 3 marines but you can still allocate saveable wounds to those marine

the way i play you would not be able to stack 2 non-saveble wounds to the melta

Catachan_Devil wrote:i paly it you allocate the non-saveable wounds first - you have to try remove causalties where possible

you should lose at least 3 marines but you can still allocate saveable wounds to those marine

the way i play you would not be able to stack 2 non-saveble wounds to the melta

That would be a house rule; the way that Elitest has it is the actual rules.

That's the way you play Catachan, but in recent torni's guys stacked savable wound's on there already dead members once the wound's were larger than the squad. so 2 KMB (kustom Mega Blata) ap2 wound's then the rest were loota slugs, 12 wounds from d3 13 shots, got a 5 so that was 39 shots. so 12 wounds on bs 5 should average against tough 4.
10 men in tact squad, he alocated 2 no save wounds to normal bolters, then spread each savable wound across, now after places 2 deaths and 8 saves, he then places the 4 extra saves he must make on 4 normal marines, 2 of them were already dead with no save, so i only cause 2 extra saving throws.
i think that's correct?

also what's the rule on doubling the toughness of something and the weapon is not a power weapon nor has a AP value, they take Armour saves as normal? the only bonus is easy to wound roll?

R-A,A
R-A,A
R-A,A
R-A
R-A
R-A
R-A
Mult-A
Las-A
Sear-W,W

You could do it this way and only lose 1 guy in theory.

lol yes if you want to lose the searg, which i guess on a front line is not so bad

What you are describing is not legal Vreith. You allocate wounds to groups of similarly equipped models, not to individual models unless they are uniquely equipped. In the example you gave he would need to take all 4 saves on his normal marines and remove an additional casualty for each one failed from the group of normal marines. He cannot avoid rolling saves in the same wound allocation group by claiming a model is 'already dead.'

The rules for putting a wound on 'each model' is to force them to be spread across the entire unit before doubling.

For example - 2 AP 1 hits and 6 normal hits on 5 marines 1 Melta, 1 Sarge, 3 bolters

That means I have 3 wound allocation groups - bolters, Melta, Sarge

I want to put as many on the bolters as possible so I throw the 2 AP 1 hits on them. I then add 1 normal into that wound allocation group "saturating" it until I put one on the Melta and Sarge.

This means Melta gets 1, Sarge gets 1 and then I can put 3 more into the bolters. In the end it looks like this

W - Normal Wound
U - Unsavable Wound

B - U W
B - U W
B - W W
M - W
S - W

I then roll all the bolter wounds together, if I fail any one of them, I lose the last bolter the other failed saves are 'wasted' but I need to make one on the Melta and Sarge as well.

Instant Death requires you to remove whole models first. It really only matters for multi-wound models. For Nobs lets say you have 4 identically equipped because you are not a cheezy git. You take 3 bolter wounds and 1 lascannon. If you fail to save these you remove one unwounded Nob for the lascannon, then another for the first 2 bolters and put a final wound on the last for the remaining wound.

High S, ID wounds are good for taking down large groups of multiwound models, Nobs and Tyranid Warriors come to mind.

Vreith wrote:...he then places the 4 extra saves he must make on 4 normal marines, 2 of them were already dead with no save, so i only cause 2 extra saving throws.
i think that's correct?

Doesn't sound correct, no.

2 of them were not 'already dead' because all of the wounds are allocated at the same time. Once you have allocated the wounds to individual models, you roll the saves in groups of identical models. So you would roll saves for all of the wounds that were allocated to normal marines, and then remove the 2 models for wounds that didn't allow a save plus as many models as you had failed saves, up to however many normal marines there were to start with.

also what's the rule on doubling the toughness of something and the weapon is not a power weapon nor has a AP value, they take Armour saves as normal? the only bonus is easy to wound roll?

Did you mean 'doubling the Strength of something' perhaps?

Because doubling Toughness won't make it any easier to wound...

But yes, Strength has no effect on armour saves.

Elitest Jerk wrote:Let me be more clear on this because this looks muddy.

PoTMS allows you to shot 1 more weapon or fire at a seperate unit.

Holy excrement!!! I didnt know a Vehicle could choose different targets. So let me know which is right:

A: DE Tank fires 2 dissys at unit 1 and one dissy at unit 2
B: DE Tank fires 1 dissy at unit 1, 1 at unit 2, 1 at unit 3.
C: DE tank declares 2 lances firing at transport and dissy at passangers *should they disembark*

Looks like the RB is going back to the reading room (translation: crapper) lol

Backup there for a second, PotMS specifically allows you to fire the weapon at another target but only the extra weapon you choose to fire using PotMS

You cannot do any of those things you listed actually. What you can do is...

A: Fire 3 Disintigrators at one unit
B: Fire 3 Disintigrators at one unit
C: Fire 2 lances and a disintigrator at one unit

gregor_xenos wrote:

Elitest Jerk wrote:Let me be more clear on this because this looks muddy.

PoTMS allows you to shot 1 more weapon or fire at a seperate unit.

Holy excrement!!! I didnt know a Vehicle could choose different targets. So let me know which is right:

A: DE Tank fires 2 dissys at unit 1 and one dissy at unit 2
B: DE Tank fires 1 dissy at unit 1, 1 at unit 2, 1 at unit 3.
C: DE tank declares 2 lances firing at transport and dissy at passangers *should they disembark*

Looks like the RB is going back to the reading room (translation: crapper) lol

No. Vehicles cannot do that. Only a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit can.

Gwar! wrote:Only a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit can.

More specifically, only a Land Raider from those codexes in which the PotMS rule allows it to fire at a different target can...

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Only a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit can.

More specifically, only a Land Raider from those codexes in which the PotMS rule allows it to fire at a different target can...

Of course! I think I need more coffee, losing my pedantic streak!

calypso2ts wrote:What you are describing is not legal Vreith. You allocate wounds to groups of similarly equipped models, not to individual models unless they are uniquely equipped. In the example you gave he would need to take all 4 saves on his normal marines and remove an additional casualty for each one failed from the group of normal marines. He cannot avoid rolling saves in the same wound allocation group by claiming a model is 'already dead.'

The rules for putting a wound on 'each model' is to force them to be spread across the entire unit before doubling.

For example - 2 AP 1 hits and 6 normal hits on 5 marines 1 Melta, 1 Sarge, 3 bolters

That means I have 3 wound allocation groups - bolters, Melta, Sarge

I want to put as many on the bolters as possible so I throw the 2 AP 1 hits on them. I then add 1 normal into that wound allocation group "saturating" it until I put one on the Melta and Sarge.

This means Melta gets 1, Sarge gets 1 and then I can put 3 more into the bolters. In the end it looks like this

W - Normal Wound
U - Unsavable Wound

B - U W
B - U W
B - W W
M - W
S - W

I then roll all the bolter wounds together, if I fail any one of them, I lose the last bolter the other failed saves are 'wasted' but I need to make one on the Melta and Sarge as well.

Instant Death requires you to remove whole models first. It really only matters for multi-wound models. For Nobs lets say you have 4 identically equipped because you are not a cheezy git. You take 3 bolter wounds and 1 lascannon. If you fail to save these you remove one unwounded Nob for the lascannon, then another for the first 2 bolters and put a final wound on the last for the remaining wound.

High S, ID wounds are good for taking down large groups of multiwound models, Nobs and Tyranid Warriors come to mind.

Me thinks you have this covered

Gwar! wrote:
No. Vehicles cannot do that. Only a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit can.

And Tau can if they take the wargear....

& thanks for the clearing up, you can only spend savable wound's on dead models IF everyone else already is forced to make a that second save. specificaly accross your normal troops. however is makes no difference if your fail any of the 4 you have allocated there as the last regular marine dies none the less. but the sarg and melta are only touched by one wound each

yes as i thought stength doubling toughness can not ignor armour save. just makes say, a big choppa on the charge more potnet at wounding, stength 4 + 2 (Bchoppa) + 1 furio charge = strength 7 so against marines still 3+ to wound, but on toughness 6 beasts keeps it at +3 , but on eldar and other low toughness a bigchoppa nob would wound on 2+

Ok,,,, thanks for clearing that up.

Sucky landraiders and their PMS.... like my ol lady they can target everything at once

(bottle to arm, foot to crotch, and plate to head) lol

calypso2ts wrote:For example - 2 AP 1 hits and 6 normal hits on 5 marines 1 Melta, 1 Sarge, 3 bolters

That means I have 3 wound allocation groups - bolters, Melta, Sarge

I want to put as many on the bolters as possible so I throw the 2 AP 1 hits on them. I then add 1 normal into that wound allocation group "saturating" it until I put one on the Melta and Sarge.

This means Melta gets 1, Sarge gets 1 and then I can put 3 more into the bolters. In the end it looks like this

W - Normal Wound
U - Unsavable Wound

B - U W
B - U W
B - W W
M - W
S - W

Just to drum this into the ground, it's worth pointing out that it could also look like this:

B - U U
B - W W
B - W W
M - W
S - W

...but the outcome would be exactly the same. The two unsavable wounds on the Bolter marine would still result in two dead marines.

Vreith wrote: you can only spend savable wound's on dead models IF everyone else already is forced to make a that second save.

No. You can never put savable wounds onto dead models. But none of the models are dead until that unit's saves have been rolled.

You can only put multiple wounds onto a single model if you keep them spread evenly across the unit, though. So a model can only be allocated a second wound if everyone else already has one. Whether or not that second wound is savable or not is irrelevant to the process... at that point in time, they're all just wounds. Whether or not the models can save against them isn't relevant until it comes time to roll your saves.

Gwar! wrote:

gregor_xenos wrote:

Elitest Jerk wrote:Let me be more clear on this because this looks muddy.

PoTMS allows you to shot 1 more weapon or fire at a seperate unit.

Holy excrement!!! I didnt know a Vehicle could choose different targets. So let me know which is right:

A: DE Tank fires 2 dissys at unit 1 and one dissy at unit 2
B: DE Tank fires 1 dissy at unit 1, 1 at unit 2, 1 at unit 3.
C: DE tank declares 2 lances firing at transport and dissy at passangers *should they disembark*

Looks like the RB is going back to the reading room (translation: crapper) lol

No. Vehicles cannot do that. Only a Land Raider with Power of the Machine Spirit can.

And even then you can't do C - that's never allowed. (assuming you meant "disembark due to the vehicle's shooting")

1) You allocate Wounding Hits to models evenly
2) You GRoup models, and the wounds you have allocated them, into Groups of identicaly equipped models with a Group of wounds - the wounds are NO LONGER on each mdoel, they are collected together.
3) You take any saves, etc, and unsaved wounds *come from the GROUP* as a whole.

The only time Instant Death plays a part in *what* model from the group is removed is when you have multiwound models; in that instance you MUST remove un-wounded models first from within that group, you cannot place an ID wound on something with only 1 wound left if, within the group, a model still has full wounds.

What that means is you may try to "stack" 2 unsaveable wounds onto a single bolter marine, however when you group all the bolter marines together you WILL lose two models from the unsaveable wounds, as at THIS point you take wounds as a *group*.

I think this is where people get confused - the only time you allocate to an individual model is at the start, in order to make sure wounds are evenly spread out. After that everything operates at the group level

Catachan - please look at the example given in the rulebook where they stacked wounds. You play a houserule, just making sure you are aware of it