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Once I've unpacked all the boxes and the workshop is up and running in my new apartment, I'm going to be starting a conversion-heavy Imperial Guard force with a Skitarii theme. I've bought some secondhand models and a set of 80 cheap "Guardsmen alternatives" on eBay to get started, but I would like your advice on what I should equip my squads with. My sticking points include:

1) I happen to have a lot of Autocannon bits: three HWTs with Autocannon emplacements and two Armoured Sentinels with Autocannons (and a third with magnetized weapon emplacement) on the GW side, and my "alternatives" include eight guys holding a minigun-thing that I could count as an Autocannon very easily, if put on a large base with an ammo-toting Servitor. I've heard good things about the AC and its anti-transport capabilities, but is there such a thing as "enough dakka" when it comes to long-range S7? Should I be certain to mix some Lascannons in there just in case?

2) As stated above, one of my Armoured Sentinels has swappable weapons. I find myself leaning towards either the Plasma Cannon (since a template S7 will help the AC Sentinels kill of infantry units, while still being useful against light vehicles) or a Lascannon (to focus on tougher vehicles). Any tips on how Sentinels are best utilized?

3) I'm a big fan of the Missile Launcher in Marine lists, but I often see them being put down for Guard armies. Is the ML any good for Guardsmen?

Thank you in advance for any advice you all can give me.

tl;dr What Heavy Weapons should I spam with my Infantry Platoons and Sentinels?

Autocannons are the best BS3 Guard Heavy weapon in my experience.

Battlecannon, lascannon, multilasers, heavy bolters and lasguns.

You can do without the rest. Plasma guns, meltas, flamers and autocannons are ok add ons, but get the above guns first.

Autocannons are great, and I feel that they and missile launchers are the best heavy weapons to put in the teams because they are not so expensive that you cringe when you lose them. Missile launchers are great because they are versatile against tanks and infantry. BS3 doesn't mean much when you fire the scatter dice on the frag template.

I also have found that mortars have been pretty good in this set up. They are a scoring unit so you can hide them on an objective out of LOS and then lob shells onto the other guy.

Lascannons are great and you really need them for long range anti tank, but I find they work better in a blob squad where they are better protected.


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And I meant use the auto cannons and missile launchers in heavy weapons squads, the more expensive las cannons work best in infantry squads.

And I have to disagree with Orlanth, any army that doesn't pack in some template weapons is asking for trouble. Always take a flame unit or two.

I would use Autocannons on teams because 2 shots offset the low bs and it has great range and str 7. I would leave anything heavier than that for Vendettas to pop.
Remember that Plasma Cannon is Armored Sentinel only and as such more expensive than normal (and can't outflank if I remember correct), personally I would use Vendettas just because their damage is so mad.

Thanks for the quick replies!

My long-term goal involves a Platoon with 4 Infantry Squads and a Heavy Weapon each as a nice static gunline and the core of my force. If I were planning to have two Autocannons and two Lascannons in that Platoon, what's the best way to blob those squads up? I was thinking 20 and 20, but should I put the ACs in one unit and the LCs in the other, or combine them in each squad? And what's the best HW to put in the Platoon Command, perhaps a Mortar to stay behind cover, or another direct weapon?

For the Company Command Squad, is it worth it to put them in a Chimera and have them fire a Lascannon out the top at BS4? Or should I just keep them on foot out of LOS and have them Mortar it up, too?

And while on the subject of Mortars, are whole Squads of them ever useful, or are HWSs in general just too fragile?


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Aetherse wrote:I would use Autocannons on teams because 2 shots offset the low bs and it has great range and str 7. I would leave anything heavier than that for Vendettas to pop.
Remember that Plasma Cannon is Armored Sentinel only and as such more expensive than normal (and can't outflank if I remember correct), personally I would use Vendettas just because their damage is so mad.

True, Armoured Sentinels can't outflank, but they're what I own, so I'm using them. My plan is to park a formation of them in front of some of my infantry to give them some cover, while adding their fire to the Platoon's. I've also considered adding a Techpriest with Servitors (some of whom with their own guns), who can stand behind the Sentinels and repair them when they break. I figure it should result in a pretty solid gunline, especially if I can start the Sentinels in cover, of course. Or would this tactic break down in actual practice for reasons I'm not foreseeing?

Always group like weapons. I use a 20 man blob (always add a commissar, too) with 2 auto cannons and 2 plasma guns, or with 2 las and 2 plasma guns.

They make great objective holding units that shoot well, especially with orders.

I often take a las in the CCS as this unit can sit in a chimera and shoot with its BS4, definitely worth the points, IMO.

I use Mortar HWS and while they don't kill much, they win games by sitting on a hidden objective and not dying. A blob squad does the job too, and has more kill power, but I do enjoy using them for that purpose although I wouldn't do it in a tournament list.


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Techpriests aren't that great,t but hey, it fits your theme.

The infantry won't need cover from the sentinels, they should be in cover already. The sentinels main benefit is that they can move and shoot so don't expose them to fire unless you have to. Start them out of LOS and then move out to fire on targets as they present themselves. Even if you go first you still should do this as the other play may steal the initiative.

I find plasma guns to be a little too expensive for infantry squads. They're too easy to lose to gets hot and on a BS 3 model they are pretty underwhelming. The AP 2 typically doesn't mean a whole lot at long range since cover is so easy to get, and the grenade launcher is a much better value at this distance. You need to rapid fire to get the most use out of it, but that will leave you in assault range, so typically you won't get very many shots with it even if it doesn't overheat. It's more safely used out of vehicles, but then you're probably using veterans or a CCS anyway.

JourneyPsycheOut wrote:I find plasma guns to be a little too expensive for infantry squads. They're too easy to lose to gets hot and on a BS 3 model they are pretty underwhelming. The AP 2 typically doesn't mean a whole lot at long range since cover is so easy to get, and the grenade launcher is a much better value at this distance. You need to rapid fire to get the most use out of it, but that will leave you in assault range, so typically you won't get very many shots with it even if it doesn't overheat. It's more safely used out of vehicles, but then you're probably using veterans or a CCS anyway.

If he is planning to use armored sentinels he should put all the plasma on those. Gets Hot! is really nasty for guardsmen. And CCS and PCS higher bs should be used to maximize the effect of single shot weapons like missiles and lascannons. I would always use veterans for special weapons and leave blobs to tarpit and HWS to do damage.

I think you've got the core of a good gunline there. Definitely blob with like weapons. AC's are a cheap, versatile weapon. I'm not sure you can bring all 14 to begin with, as you need to be able to hurt heavy armour and hordes of infantry as well.

I'd go with the plasma cannon for that third sent. Because it's a plasma cannon. And don't worry about giving the infantry cover - they can get their own, the lazy bass turds. Use cover and mobility to stay alive and take potshots, keeping an eye out to charge something that can't hurt you (or can).

I've used the missile launcher in every guard game I've played, and I'm usually satisfied with their performance. 5th changed them. I am much happier with the new blast rules and find they do a good job against infantry, both in HWS and PIS. They just aren't as good against vehicles anymore, and can't be relied on vs AV13-14. Since you already have so many AC's, maybe another versatile weapon isn't important. You need to add high strength and anti-inf, which you can get cheaper with other options (HB/Mortar). I'm personally about to try HB's with my PIS's, and all other heavies in HWS's. Your heavy weapon choice is almost a matter of style, as long as you cover all the target types sufficiently...

The same goes with the command squads. There are many, many useful combinations, especially with the CCS. There's something to be said for keeping it cheap with a single mortar, and also for the BS4 LC out the chim. Keeping the PCS mobile with 4 flamers is popular.

The key to the HWS is to balance them with protection from the regulars. I also make sure they get cover, and CCS support, and a regimental standard doesn't hurt, and I throw a Lord Commissar with the CCS so that my chosen HWS's basically don't run. Ld10 morale with a reroll means they pretty much have to be completely destroyed to be silenced, and cover lets them soak up some fire. Orders are just a bonus, but it's nice to take them at ld10 too and they sure work nice with BiD and FoMT. Fragile is right. A mortar HWS is nice to have I find.

The techpriest is fairly expensive, and fragile himself, and I don't think will help the sents that much. I think they're either operational or destroyed, they don't really get 'damaged'.

If you can, I'd suggest using infantry to cover your sentinels. I'm not sure how the height difference works out, but it might be worth looking into.

BS 4 is always good for a lascannon, but if you're going to run chimeras, you want more than one. I'm pretty sure you'll be fine just hiding your company command squad inside of your gunline.

Don't waste your time with heavy bolters, imo, ever. Stick to Autocannons and Missile Launchers/Lascannons for your heavy weapon teams.

I prefer heavy weapons in infantry squads, not in the heavy weapon teams. Str 6 instakills them, and orders fail too regularly without a vox.

Plasma is pretty much best used on vehicles, and pretty useful. Although vet squads with x3 plasma also provide some nice fire support.

Oh, I'd suggest you run your platoon command squad with 4 flamers. It's cheap, and incredibly effective at getting large amounts of flame templates on a target.

Are you intending to add some tanks?

Gwar! wrote:Autocannons are the best BS3 Guard Heavy weapon in my experience.

QFT.

Autocannons and, if you can afford it, lascannons are the two best weapons you can outfit your Guard with.

The autocannon is cheap, packs a high S, multiple shots, long range and has the ability to engage a multitude of targets from medium infantry to light vehicles to MC. Realistically, you will be hard pressed to find a weapon that can do so much for such a cheap price. I spam these on my PIS like nobodys business.

Lascannons, whilst not as effective as they used to be, are still a pretty good choice. What lets them down is not the gun itself, but the person manning it. A single-shot, BS3 weapon wll only hit 50% of the time. When it hits it might well make a mess of something, but you pay a lot of points for a gun that will only hit, on average, 3 times a game. A much better use of points is to invest in a Vendetta, as it is only marginally more expensive (than a 3-las HWS) but you get 3 x TL lascannons on a fast skimmer, which is much more fun/reliable.

Mortars are also a good choice as they are cheap, scoring, and can hide behind cover whilst still peppering the enemy wiith Ld-threatening pinning checks. Barrage also ignores cover (I think...will have to double check that) so is doubly invaluable against horde-y armies.

L. Wrex

Also an autocannon fan. I think the most efficient way to work is autocannons in the static infantry, add some meltaguns (ideally mechanised or deepstriking) for really heavy vehicles like land raiders, and some outflanking lascannons via scout sentinels or vendettas (these should be the best thing for battlewagons, chimera walls, SM vindicators, etc.)

On a side note, armoured sentinels are a rip-off IMO. Even if your models are already built, surely you can saw the tops off? Outflanking is a huge offensive boost, compared to the overpriced defense upgrade you buy for 20 points/vehicle.

Alright, a lot of useful advice here, thank you!

I think what I'll end up doing is spamming Autocannons in my large static platoon, with Lascannons in the Command Squads and maybe a Mortar HWS if I'm facing hordes. Missile Launcher teams will be built and sprinkled in on occasion to gauge how well they work.

My second, smaller platoon will be outflanking with Al'Rahem, which I neglected to mention before, and will all be in Chimeras; four flamers on the PCS and a meltagun in each IS. I'm thinking since they'll be mobile, heavy weapons would be somewhat wasted on them, but might they need a little more firepower to make a credible threat?

Right now, not counting the CCS, this comes out to around 70 bodies (and three tanks) on the field for around 800pts., last time I calculated, which seems pretty cost-effective to me. Still have hundreds of points in an average-sized list for tanks, heavy artillery, and skimmers. Right now I'm thinking a LR Executioner, a Vendetta with some kind of Vets inside, and those Sentinels I was talking about (which may be converted into Scouts to help with the Outflanking). Sound like a solid plan?

Orlanth wrote:Battlecannon, lascannon, multilasers, heavy bolters and lasguns.

You can do without the rest. Plasma guns, meltas, flamers and autocannons are ok add ons, but get the above guns first.

Uh.....no. I agree you need some kind of large blast for clearing clumps of MEQs and hordes, but a battle cannon isn't necessarily the best option. Medusas are also a potential option, for example, or a demolisher.

Lascannons: Aside from the awesomeness that is vendettas, lascannons aren't a necessity.

Multilasers: Standard on chimeras, but I wouldn't try to take them anywhere else (sentinals, valks, etc)

Heavy Bolters: Aside from really cheap/standard add ons, I wouldn't worry too much about these. MAYBE hull mounted for chimeras that are sitting as part of a gunline.

Plasma guns: probably pass.

Meltas: Almost a necessity. You need at least a few mobile meltas to counter certain threats...say land raiders? Lascannons need to be spammed HEAVILY to ensure stopping a land raider (or 3) in a timely manner. Medusas and stuff are blasts, so they can't be counted on reliably either. A couple sacrificial melta units (the old 3 melta vets, for example) are much more effective, especially with "Bring it down". Insta-killing toughness 4 stuff is very handy as well. Add in the fact that you can get 2-3 meltas for the cost of a lascannon, and you really should bring a few.

Flamers: I've found hull flamers on chimeras that advance towards the enemy to be pretty handy. Sometimes I keep a PCS or similar (Inq with flamer vets) handy to clear out hordes hiding in cover.

Autocannons: a strong option to counter light (AV 10-12) armor

Look at your list and ensure you have enough of the various weapon types to handle the expected army builds: for razorback spam, you'll need a lot of ranged firepower, and autocannons will shine. Blood angels assault marine horde? You'll need some large blasts and lascannons/melta to clean up the remains. Horde? Large blasts and flamers, with lascannons and meltas to take out the leaders.

I usually look at something like: 3 vendettas, 3 heavy support options with blasts (LR, medusa), 3ish squads with melta (CCS, PCS, vets) and then the troop options fill out light anti-tank with autocannons or las/plas. Throw some chimeras in for mobility and you've got a solid basic build.

Which to spam? None of them.

Heavy weapons are expensive for what they do, and they're immobile in a mobility-intensive rules set. Taking lots and lots only compounds this problem.

If you want to spam, spam special weapons (more or equal damage for fewer points, and their short range is less of an issue now), and super-heavy weapons (manticores, earthshaker cannons, etc. etc., which are actually capable of doing lots of damage, unlike infantry-heavy weapons).

Autocannons are the best choice. They are dirt-cheap, and quite adequate at busting transports and medium-armored vehicles, which are all the rage in this edition.

It may be going against the interwebz group-think, but I happen to like plasmas in blob squads.

Yup, go ACs. Also, I think people are underestimating the accuracy of blasts. They have a 1/2 chance of hitting when you consider that 1/3 times they get direct hit, at least 1/6 times they scatter they still hit, and usually they only scatter minutely. So a medusa, specially with BBs, can hit large targets like Landraiders and destroy them much more reliably than vendettas (3 lascan shots only penetrate once 1/2 times, and don't get +1 rolls on consequences)

Ailaros wrote:Which to spam? None of them.

Heavy weapons are expensive for what they do, and they're immobile in a mobility-intensive rules set. Taking lots and lots only compounds this problem.

If you want to spam, spam special weapons (more or equal damage for fewer points, and their short range is less of an issue now), and super-heavy weapons (manticores, earthshaker cannons, etc. etc., which are actually capable of doing lots of damage, unlike infantry-heavy weapons).

I think Ailaros is right: in terms of heavy weapon spamming, you rely on PIS spam and heavy weapon squads in infantry platoons. Both lack the mobilty that is present in 5th edition in order to make worth their points (shooting stuff). Also, in order to include heavy weapons you pay much more for the carriers (the PIS) and heavy weapon squads are easilly destroyed with only T3, whic means instant death from multilasers (for ex.).

Instead, you got vets in chimeras, vendettas, lemans which synergy firepower with mobilty, at more cost, but better cost/eficience.
Of course, one infantry platoon with PCS in chim with 4 flamers, plus 2 PIS with special and heavy for keeping objectives is good. Relying on heavy weapon spam on PIS and heavy weapons teams not.

Thats my opinion.

In my experience, Mortars are great for CCS that sit back and give orders, and have all the things that you dont want to die in them like regimental advisers and such. Theres also an extremely dirty tactic where you can pull multiple barrages rule on the mortar and have the master of the ordnance call in an arty strike the same place the mortar lands do not use if you value your respect. I use a 2x heavy bolter 1x autocannon heavy weapons team atm because thats all i have, and the autocannon always gets more kills on MEQ, but the heavy bolters get more kills on orks and such. I also have a 3x lascannon squad. this is stupid for a number of reasons, such as only being able to fire at one target, also being a 105pts squad with paper for armour, and instant death from plasma pistols and such, but the upside is ordering BRING IT DOWN on anything without av14 and you have room to expect an armour kill. thats my 2 cents

Gotta disagree on plasma, now granted I use them 3 or 4 at a time in command and vet squads, AND I give out carapace armor like it's going out of style.

But for keeping your backfield clear of deep striking marines, nid worms etc nothing beats it.

Also an auctocannon fan. For the points you spend per squad you get a gun that can damage anything effectively bar heavy armor. Plus their range means they usually always have something to fire on. I'd ignore missile launchers myself. If you want to spend points in other areas more definitely try flamers. Can help soften up units trying to assault you. Use lascannons in your command squads if you can. Also if you have scout sentinels and auctocannons they are great for their points cost. A squadron of these can really spell trouble for enemy monstrous creatures, heavy infantry and light/medium armor.

Agreed Lexx, although im an armoured sentinel lover myself (space marine roots kickin in there, armour over numbers ) autocannons are an absolute steal at 5 points, and as i learnt today, autocannons have the exact same effect as plasma weaponry when firing at enemies in cover, so if ur facing lots of cover, take the autocannon! they are very superior weapons. i only wish i was around in the days chimeras could take them :(

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Gotta disagree on plasma, now granted I use them 3 or 4 at a time in command and vet squads, AND I give out carapace armor like it's going out of style.

But for keeping your backfield clear of deep striking marines, nid worms etc nothing beats it.

It's not just that. At 24" when firing those autocannons at enemy transports with Bring it Down, those plasmas improve your success rate against said vehicles dramatically (9 TL S7 shots usually = dead transport). When things get up close and personal, it can be worthwhile to forgo the autocannon fire to move into rapid fire range (assuming a squad of 30, 6 autocannon shots won't kill as many marines as 3 additional plasma shots and an additional 45 lasgun shots).

Jaon wrote:Theres also an extremely dirty tactic where you can pull multiple barrages rule on the mortar and have the master of the ordnance call in an arty strike the same place the mortar lands do not use if you value your respect.

Look at the FAQ. They outlawed this specifically. You now need to roll them seperate of each other, rather than in a barrage.

Lexx wrote:Also an auctocannon fan. For the points you spend per squad you get a gun that can damage anything effectively bar heavy armor.

You can damage anything INEFFECTIVELY, regardless of if it's heavy armor or not.

Heavy weapons are expensive for what they do. In the case of autocannons, this stems from the fact that they're ineffective, rather than that they cost a lot of points. Spamming only plays into this problem.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Gotta disagree on plasma

Yeah, it's not that plasma guns somehow got BAD, so much as they just got more specialized, and are no longer the catch-all that they used to be. It doesn't make as much spamming them as they used to.

Ailaros wrote:You can damage anything INEFFECTIVELY, regardless of if it's heavy armor or not.

Heavy weapons are expensive for what they do. In the case of autocannons, this stems from the fact that they're ineffective, rather than that they cost a lot of points. Spamming only plays into this problem.

Damnit, it's Ailaros again, spouting this anti-Autocannon nonsense with zero backing in statistics.

AC are superior vs AV 10, superior vs AV 11, sidegrades and cheaper vs AV 12, and much worse vs AV 13.

If you are trying to shoot AV 10, 11, and 12, take autocannons. If you are trying to shoot vs AV 13, take lascannons or melta guns. Vs AV 12 lascannons are slightly more effective, but in HWS units they cost 40% more, making them much less effective. Never take a lascannon HWS. Lascannons are viable in PCS, and moderately so in infantry squads.

Ailaros wrote:Heavy weapons are expensive for what they do. In the case of autocannons, this stems from the fact that they're ineffective, rather than that they cost a lot of points. Spamming only plays into this problem.

Where are you getting this complete and utter nonsense from? Autocannons are fantastic at destroying the majority of vehicles you see on the 5th edition battlefield, and the math is quite clear on this.

Im a guard player (not a very good one)
I recommend a mixture of AC and ML

I'm not a fan of missile launchers in the guard, because the two shots of the autocannons make it significantly better vs. AV10 and 11 targets, and slightly better against AV12. For dealing with infantry, the guard has far better ways to deal with them than S3 blasts, and on top of that the missile launcher costs 50% more than an autocannon.

One thing that's changed a bit on the whole AC front is the prevalence of T6 Sv3+ 'Nid big bugs. If your local area has a lot 'Nid players with a lot of monstrous creatures, ML might be the better option. Taking out the 3+ Sv is worth losing the shot from the AC.

Valete,

JohnS