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(I put this in Tactics rather than armylists as the list is still under construction!) Hello theres. So I'm drafting the idea for a 2000-point Guard army based off Catachans. (Creed=Colonel Greiss.). So lots of flaming, sneaky action, a fair share of Autocannon and light mortar support (yeah, Griffons); probably Fast-Attackwise, 2 Sentinel Teams (or Vendettas; still contemplating), and a Hellhound/Devildog squadron.

Now, I'm contemplating the idea of using Harker's Veterans, giving them Demolitions, and using Creed to Scout them as part of a turn-1 meltabomb alphastrike. While the potential against something like Battlewagon Orks (staying near the KFF=multichargeable) or Mechdar who don't reserve would be *eep*, the unit's duality otherwise would be somewhat questionable. As a light sniper unit with 3x Grenade Launchers, it could also have its purpose, Creed's command radius allowing them to better-utilize orders. Inversely, the Hellhounds would also be scoutable, to threaten enemy units from turn 1/optionally provide sideshots on turn 1 assuming a spam of HKMs...

Thoughts?

Why would you need Harker for this exactly?

Also, a first-turn charge works a lot better if you mount the squad in a valkyrie/vendetta - scout move 24", you should be close enough to disembark and charge before moving the valk first turn. If you don't get first turn, keep the unit in reserve to outflank.

The enemy might have their own Infiltrators which get sacrificed to hem your Valkyries in. Kroot are a classic example.

Scouting hellhounds or devil dogs sound very interesting if you have first turn.

Can you infiltrate THEN take your scout move? If so I see the point of Harker. That is pretty evil.... Hmmmm....

wait, valkyries can scout move 24" ? O_O

Grundz wrote:wait, valkyries can scout move 24" ? O_O

fast skimmers can move 24" (when moving flat out)

kestral wrote:Scouting hellhounds or devil dogs sound very interesting if you have first turn.

Can you infiltrate THEN take your scout move? If so I see the point of Harker. That is pretty evil.... Hmmmm....

There's nothing preventing Infiltrators from subsequently Scouting, so yes it's legal. That's part of the plan. Either to (depending on circumstances) Scout Creed's Chimera into an ideal area to project his command radius, Scout Harker for a turn-1 mass-meltabomb assault, or Scout Hellhounds/Devildogs (still deciding) to an ideal firing position to torch an ideal infantry unit (this could mean a Transport I intend to blow up with the Vendettas); I don't like Scouting Vendettas forward to deliver Meltavets as a general rule; instead, I scout them to optimal firing positions for sidesniping enemy armor. I'm thinking of holding some Flamer Special Weapon Teams in them as as DAVU-like scoring upgrades as well, as well as to discourage enemies from trying to get close to it.

My main issue is making everything cost-effective for this purpose.

I can certainly see this catching some people off guard and being devestating against mech-spam armies. Might as well throw in a cheap inquisitor with tarot to up your odds of going first.

Still, after nuking one or two people, people will identify the threat from looking at your list and defend appropriately (put a small sacrificial unit out fron to push the infiltrate distance to be too far away).

So when you scout, you have to stop more than 12" away from enemy models. In order to pull off a first turn charge with harker+scout you would have to cheat.

Ah...so 12.1...that changes things. Oh wells. Now would I be able to get it to work with a Callidus?

Over 12" so no first turn charge unless your charge range is 12+"

Erm... you could, ya know, deploy 2" away, move 6" then assault 6"?

Or are you talking about the whole normal scout thing?

MagicJuggler wrote:Ah...so 12.1...that changes things. Oh wells. Now would I be able to get it to work with a Callidus?

Nah use one of the others since. The Evesor or whatever which ever is a beast in CC. Hmm Storm troopers might be cool for this infiltrate plus 6 inch scout plus 6 inch move give you a first turn rapid fire or melta. Or if they have a mech heavy army you can cock block them with a squad of meltas force them to go around or mess up there movement possibly.

Gwar! wrote:Erm... you could, ya know, deploy 2" away, move 6" then assault 6"?

Or are you talking about the whole normal scout thing?

He's talking about infiltrate+scouts, not assaulting 1st turn after scouting with a valkyrie/vendetta.

QuietOrkmi wrote:Over 12" so no first turn charge unless your charge range is 12+"

Sure you can. Infiltrate/scout to a little over 12" and turn the transport around. On your turn, deploy within 2" of hatch, move 6" assault 6". 14" covered.

Taking Creed to use scouts on a single squad of veterans that already has infiltrate has to be one of the most wasteful uses of Creed.

Seriously, you can make nearly 200 models outflank when combining Creed with Al'Rahem. Likewise, you can make a squadron of 3 demolishers outflank, or a squad of 10 ogryn and a priest, or a squad or meltagun/bomb rough riders, or, or, or...

Creed allows you to be insanely abusive if you have sufficient imagination. Taking him to give outflanking to a unit that can already outflank is lacking in imagination.

I think he was taking both for options in outflanking, or outflanking multiple units. Instead of just dropping a melta squad on a flank, he could deploy harker's melta squad and a banewolf, or something similar.

I've actually taken Creed and Al'Razeem together on a number of occasions. Creed would outflank a melta squad (or rarely a demolisher), and Al'Razeem would outflank a blob combat squad or two and himself with more meltas.

Or take an allied unit of Grey Knight Terminators and outflank them. Shame that orders don't work on them anymore. :(

Ailaros wrote:Taking Creed to use scouts on a single squad of veterans that already has infiltrate has to be one of the most wasteful uses of Creed.

Seriously, you can make nearly 200 models outflank when combining Creed with Al'Rahem. Likewise, you can make a squadron of 3 demolishers outflank, or a squad of 10 ogryn and a priest, or a squad or meltagun/bomb rough riders, or, or, or...

Creed allows you to be insanely abusive if you have sufficient imagination. Taking him to give outflanking to a unit that can already outflank is lacking in imagination.

And to talk about Creed solely about Outflanking (which wasn't the original point of this topic; if need be, anything and everything else in the list could reserve, outflank, or deepstrike as need be) implies too much /tg/. The original subject topic based off a misreading of Scouts, which made me believe you could in fact use it as an aircraft-independent means to get a turn-1 alphastrike, or (more appropriately) as an infiltrating screen to prevent opponents from using infiltrators to box *your* aircraft in. (I've pulled it off before; infiltrate a sacrifical Kroot unit to prevent the Gunships from Scouting Forward; having an Infiltrator to screen against that is handy);.

And to suggest Ogryns implies you're trolling.

MagicJuggler wrote:And to suggest Ogryns implies you're trolling.

10 ogryn and a priest...

30 S5 attacks followed by 44 rerollable S6 attacks, 3 of which ignore armor. If they have a squad of 10 devestators and 10 tac marines on an objective, they all but disappear in a single round, leaving 30 T5 wounds on the objective. Not how I'd like to start my games if I were facing off against this.

Just about as cheezy as outflanking a squad of manticores


... or a squad of Stormhammers

"Sir, we have them just where we want them, it would take a tactical GENIUS to get out of the position... that... Hey, do you guys hear something?"

Except:
-Priests don't let Ogryns reroll their attacks. Yarrick does but he's expensive, and makes them Fearless (meaning No Retreat for their non-Marine armor saves. Then suddenly, a Dreadnought).
-A Priest is an Independent Character; either the Ogryns or Priest get to Scout. Not both.
-For that cost, you could get a squad of 2 Banewolves, scout them up forward, and torch said Marine squad starting on turn 1; you'd *still* have leftover points for a Vendetta or two. Or (since Marines generally implies mechhammer), Devildogs; Scout up next to their Razorspam and let the partial templates fly!

Also, Manticores can't be squadded.