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"And again, what do you base this on? Where is this ever stated in the Cities of Death rulebook? Because page 11 clearly states that you are wrong when they tell you that the normal line of sight rules apply to city ruins."

I don't know which book you're looking at, but my CoD book very clearly says to use true LOS to determine whether or not the model can see over the ruin.


What it SAYS is that the model can see over the ruin if it is high enough to do so.

What you seem to have taken that to mean is that the model must be higher than the building.

This is not, in any way, backed up by the rules.


If you can see over a building, you are high enough to see over it. If you weren't high enough to see over it, you wouldn't be able to see over it.

Then perhaps you can provide a page number and a quote to back up your claims because mine says no such thing. They say that the normal rules for line of sight apply to city ruins except if a model is high enough to see over them. What are the normal rules for line of sight over city ruins? It's right there in black and white on page 21 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook under the heading Line Of Sight & Area Terrain. It says that a model classed as taller than the Area Terrain can see and be seen over it. So how can you determine if you're classed as taller than the Area Terrain if it does not have a set size?


Yes, it is backed up by the rules. His line of sight must be unobstructed to the enemy model. Hence he must be 'higher' than the building.

And yet again, you're ignoring the real question. How do you determine if a model can or can not see over Area Terrain if it does not have a set size and you use the normal rules for line of sight for city ruins and those city ruins do not have a set size.

"They say that the normal rules for line of sight apply to city ruins except if a model is high enough to see over them."

Exactly! 'If the model is high enough to see over them' ... NOT 'if the model is higher than the building.'

It just has to be able to see over.



"So how can you determine if you're classed as taller than the Area Terrain if it does not have a set size?"

You don't. Because you use true LOS, as it says right there on the page.


"His line of sight must be unobstructed to the enemy model. Hence he must be 'higher' than the building."

You don't have to be higher up than something to see over it.

I can see over a 3-foot-tall box with both feet on the ground. I can see a 12-foot-tall object, or someone standing on the roof, over a 6 foot obstacle.

There are any number of situations in which you can see over something without physically being higher off the ground.


The rules on page 11 do not require the model to be higher than the building. They simply require the model to be high enough to see over it in order to draw a LOS.

Sizes never enter into it.


"And yet again, you're ignoring the real question. How do you determine if a model can or can not see over Area Terrain if it does not have a set size and you use the normal rules for line of sight for city ruins and those city ruins do not have a set size."

I'm ignoring it because it's irrelevant. It says right there on page 11 that you use true LOS to determine LOS over the ruin. Try reading what's actually on the page, instead of what you want it to say.

And again, that is not the normal line of sight rules in regards to city ruins. They are Area Terrain and therefore do NOT use true line of sight.

Ghaz: "Now that you're done acting like a troll, would you like to contribute to this thread and answer the question instead of repeating something that we all already agree on?"

I don't remember saying I was done.

Anyways, you have totally convinced me. It makes complete sense that two models will NEVER be able to see each other over city ruins because of the size categories involved. The COD book was written in a way to simply antagonize us by forcing to read extra pages of rules that will be imediately superceeded by the 40K book.

"And again, that is not the normal line of sight rules in regards to city ruins. They are Area Terrain and therefore do NOT use true line of sight."

You have got to be joking.

Page 11 tells you, right there in black and white, to use true LOS INSTEAD OF THE NORMAL RULES.


At this point, I'm done. You're either not reading the book, or deliberately trolling for some inexplicable reason of your own. Given your usual clarity, I'm leaning towards the latter, since there is simply no way to read the rules on page 11 and then take the interpretation that you seem so set on.

Ghaz tends to ignore all rules that contradict his point of view...Reoccuring habbit for him.

And again, it says no such thing. It says the following:

The normal line of sight rules apply to city ruins... The only exception to this is if a model is high enough to see over a city ruin to a model on the far side...


That never says that you use true line of sight and very clearly states that you use the normal rules with one exception.


And it seems that you're starting a habit of trolling without anything to support your point of view, because if you were to actually bother to read the rules, you would see it says exactly what I've posted above. It seems to me that I'm the only one who's bothered to even notice that it states that the normal line of site rules apply.

So for the final time, how do you use the 'normal line of sight rules' that apply to city ruins if a model is not high enough to see over them to a model on the far side if said city ruins do not have a set size.

The normal line of sight rules is models eye view. The exception is area terrain that has a size bigger than the unit. In this case the area terrain does not have a size, so it is not bigger than the unit. Thus the normal (Model's eye view) LOS is used.

Same as in a normal game where a model is hiding behind a non-area terrain wall. The wall does not have a size level, but if either the firing model or the target model are high enough (physically) to see each other, then they can be fired apon. This height can also be due to actual model height rather than what they're standing on.

...sigh...


"The normal line of sight rules apply to city ruins..."

"The only exception to this is if a model is high enough to see over a city ruin to a model on the far side..."

"... bend down and take a 'model's eye view' to check if the target is visible."


So yes, you're either joking or trolling. Purposely ignoring a sentence doesn't make your argument correct.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 09/28/2006 2:30 PM
Ghaz: "So please stop answering a question that no one has asked and answer the real question."

Appologies! I thought we were talking about city ruins. Everyone knows that THE REAL question is as follows:

When Michael Knight drives KIT into the back of that 18 wheeler as it travels down the highway how does he not rocket through the front of the cab the second the rear tires of the Camaro hit the ramp?

The answer of course is that KIT was a mixture of american steel, Oni demon magic, and an ork wartrukk making it able to go from 75 MPH to 0 in .56 seconds. This is also why David hasselhoff had to be cloned multiple times since even though the car would stop he would be mercilessly hurtled through the windshield. It all turned out for the best though since we have German Hoff, Beach Hoff, and the all new multiple pose Action Hoff (with optional dramatic head whip action).

Again, sorry to go OT with all of this cityfight nonsense. I'm glad we could clear up the real question.

GAWD! KIT WAS A FIREBIRD NOT A CAMARO! NOT  ALL F-BODY GMs WERE THE SAME! GAWD!

(Sorry for the OT Trolling, couldnt resist)

On a more serious note...

LOS is played on the footprint of the ruins. I got that but what if the "front" of the building is 15 inches in the air and the "rear" of the ruin drops to the base? So you are left with from the "side" view a big triangle. Do you play LOS like it is a 15 inch tall rectangle and ignore the fact that there is essentially half of the ruin missing?

Yup.

The example picture given in the LOS section of the CoD book has a LOS traced over the tallest walls of the building, although the actual line, given the placement of the minis, would be running through between them.

So you use the tallest point as the 'height' of the building... or at least, that's how I take it.

Also, how do windows / walls of the terrain figure into line of sight? Can the whole unit "see" through the same window?

"Also, how do windows / walls of the terrain figure into line of sight? "

They don't.

The building ruin is area terrain. In the same way that individual trees on a forest base don't affect LOS, the physical construction of the ruin is completely irrelevant. You have a piece of Area Terrain the width of its footprint, and the height of the tallest wall. Everything inside those boundaries is just a marker that says 'Here be a ruin'

Ok, good. Thats how we were playing it.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 09/28/2006 2:30 PM
Ghaz: "So please stop answering a question that no one has asked and answer the real question."

Appologies! I thought we were talking about city ruins. Everyone knows that THE REAL question is as follows:

When Michael Knight drives KIT into the back of that 18 wheeler as it travels down the highway how does he not rocket through the front of the cab the second the rear tires of the Camaro hit the ramp?

The answer of course is that KIT was a mixture of american steel, Oni demon magic, and an ork wartrukk making it able to go from 75 MPH to 0 in .56 seconds. This is also why David hasselhoff had to be cloned multiple times since even though the car would stop he would be mercilessly hurtled through the windshield. It all turned out for the best though since we have German Hoff, Beach Hoff, and the all new multiple pose Action Hoff (with optional dramatic head whip action).

Again, sorry to go OT with all of this cityfight nonsense. I'm glad we could clear up the real question.

Actually, there's just a big treadmill installed into the floor of the trailor which runs until the tires stopped spinning. KITT would have the same speed as the 18 wheeler at this point, so Mr. Hasselhoff would suffer no ill effects other than having to live the prime of his life in the eighties. Oh, and KITT was a Pontiac Trans-Am.