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Ah but making copying a CD and boxing it only costa  few cents.  You're already paying this type of markup.

GW's business policy is absolute genius... for Bizzaro-world.

Let's look at how their attempt to fix their own problems actively FUBAR their actual goals.

Reality: Revenues Down

GW's Reality Distortion Field Cause: Veterans aren't buying. LOTR bubble burst, Atlanta Fab still being paid off.

GW's Solution: Raise prices, target younger -first time- audience, reduce spending by removing web support, cutting White Dwarf budget, reductions in events staff.

Actual result of the above:

#1 Raise prices:
Veterans who represented a slow but steady revenue stream are disapearing as prices are too high for impulse buying. Parents generally balk at the present prices as well.

#2 Target younger first time audience:
As part of #1. kids can not afford the product themselves. Parents are now balking at the high prices. Parents are also balking at the fact that after paying said huge start-up cost, the addon cost continues to be huge. Parents are also finding that their little ADD suffering kids won't put in the effort to justify the continued support of the product. Veterans are discouraged because playing on a league night (outside of your busy schedule) usually results in playing some whiny drooling goober kid with an unpainted power-army carried in a shoebox. The kid doesn't find getting hammered by an experienced general much fun either.

#3 Removing web support, cutting White Dwarf budget, reductions in events staff.
Well... I'm sure doing this is very helpful in stimulating revenue when your customer-base is shrinking.

So in conclusion, GW's strategy seems to be:

MARKET TO THE KIDS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRICING THEM OUT OF THE MARKET, AND ALIENATING THE VETERANS WHO CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD OUR INCREASINGLY EXCLUSIVE PRODUCT!!!

Yay! ME BIZZARO, ME NUBAH ONE!

Posted By jfrazell on 11/17/2006 12:27 PM

Your argument, if correct, is the working of the effective working of the market.  Sales will fall.  If margins do not correspondingly approve (the Mercedes effect) then this will negatively impact the Company. If possible they will then reduce prices.  If not they go under. 

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.  

I don't know what sort of assumptions you're operating under, but just to remind you: the average GW shopper is not a goddamn economist. We don't, as a rule, look at the $40.00 GW-brand aquarium plants and say "Isn't it wonderful that the machinery of practical economics will likely reduce the price of this product over time?" No. We say "that's really expensive and I'm kind of insulted that GW thinks I'd pay that much," and then we probably will say "I'd like a donut" because we like donuts.

In terms of the consumer, the assumption that a price should reflect the value of the product is the norm. The value is in what we want out of the product, and for GW, what we want out of the product is some bits of plastic and metal, some good rules, and a gaming community. Arguably, the prices five to ten years ago were sufficient to cover the cost of these desires and leave GW with a profit. Since then? We're paying extra or GW's bloated retail model and Tom Kirby's screwups.

Posted By keezus on 11/17/2006 12:38 PM


MARKET TO THE KIDS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY PRICING THEM OUT OF THE MARKET, AND ALIENATING THE VETERANS WHO CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD OUR INCREASINGLY EXCLUSIVE PRODUCT!!!

Yay! ME BIZZARO, ME NUBAH ONE!

Brilliantly correct.  You can either target the premium market, or the economy market.  You can't do both effectively with the same product line and market plan (although they could bifurcate the two through services).  

Posted By Triggerbaby on 11/17/2006 12:45 PM

Posted By jfrazell on 11/17/2006 12:27 PM

Your argument, if correct, is the working of the effective working of the market.  Sales will fall.  If margins do not correspondingly approve (the Mercedes effect) then this will negatively impact the Company. If possible they will then reduce prices.  If not they go under. 

But the theory that pricing should in any way be related to actual commodity prices is misplaced.  

I don't know what sort of assumptions you're operating under, but just to remind you: the average GW shopper is not a goddamn economist. We don't, as a rule, look at the $40.00 GW-brand aquarium plants and say "Isn't it wonderful that the machinery of practical economics will likely reduce the price of this product over time?" No. We say "that's really expensive and I'm kind of insulted that GW thinks I'd pay that much," and then we probably will say "I'd like a donut" because we like donuts.

In terms of the consumer, the assumption that a price should reflect the value of the product is the norm. The value is in what we want out of the product, and for GW, what we want out of the product is some bits of plastic and metal, some good rules, and a gaming community. Arguably, the prices five to ten years ago were sufficient to cover the cost of these desires and leave GW with a profit. Since then? We're paying extra or GW's bloated retail model and Tom Kirby's screwups.

You're starting to foam a little at the mouth there Triggerbaby.  Profanity is not necessary.  Interestingly you agreed with the point I was making.  The interaction between the perceived value we receive and price determines their sales. If we feel its valued we'll support that price. If not we walk away play something else, move on, or just buy less.  That will force them to eventually change thier behavior.  So I guess the average GW shopper really is a "goddamn economist" because they are acting exactly how an efficient system would operate.

Jfrazell:

That's an interesting thought. In V4, they could have easily gone with: Battle for McCragge, Battle for Skull Pass and "Battlepack Addons" with included "Brochure style ruleset" for the other races, as a "starter game" with all the basic mechanics in place - for the kids... and then had a more robust "Advanced WH40k / Advanced WH Fantasy" for the rest of the crowd.

Hell, in "mini-starterforce format", these starters would probably sell well to the Veterans as well. How cool would it be to buy a "Necron" addon pack with 8 warriors, 6 flayed ones and 3 scarab swarms with a small Necronesque scenery piece and 5 WBB casualty models for around $45? If it came with quickstart rules, it wouldn't seem bad at all.

Howzabout an ork starter with 10 slugga boyz, 10 shoota boyz, a powerklaw Nob, an ammo runt, squig and a selection of Orky barricades?

Granted, this would involve coherent rules writing, and somehow, I feel this is beyond the writers.

You're starting to foam a little at the mouth there Triggerbaby. 

Starting? That's all I do here. I come to Dakka with the express purpose of getting angry and throwing little tantrums.

 Profanity is not necessary. 

Yes it is. We're on an internet forum.

Exactly. This is a public forum. No need for profanity. 

Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

As for the mould prices Trust me I know enough staff members who work/worked for GW and the mould do not cost that much. why do you think they used to give staff sprues on weight. I paid £200 and got £2000 worth of SW stuff. so that meens a £10 sprue is only really worth £1. Ok I understand about overheads but they pay there staff so little that surely that should not matter and they dont open in the mornings anymore so they now save 15hours of electricity/gas bill a week and they have gone from 2 vets nights a week to 1. Less staff also.

Here's where I get a bit lost:

People here are complaining about GW's prices, lambasting their stupidity and lack of business sense. These same people complain about how unaffordable GW's products are due to the aforementioned stupidity.

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

I'm not a world class genius, and I've never run a business. I've also got a wife and kid to support. But I still buy whatever models and kits I need, and then probably 50% more that I never even get around to painting, and it barely even registers as an expense relative to the other stuff I'm shelling out for.

DO you have a crack addiction? What other hobby or unnecessary thing do you spend money on that is more expensive than GW products? I waste alot on other things aswell that are not basic necessaties but lets not kid ourselves GW is overpriced. I dont however complain about it (its just a fact) I buy it cos I am an addict (GW products not Crack)

There are costs to the product besides the plastic it takes to make them.

I don't think the game designers and sculpters they hire are just doing everything for free, and I doubt they work cheap.

It's also not like you need to buy much after you have a certain amount of models unless for some reason you want to have 4-5 armies, or that there isn't a value attached to the models you could recoup by selling them.

If you've had your army for a 3-4 years, you could probalby ebay it all off at a profit now.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/17/2006 4:29 PM

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

Sorry but i had to chime in.

I'll give you a small example:

I, like most wargamming geeks, love small tanks, and the micro machines one are incredibly cute so I would like to have a bunch, but there is no way in hell I'm going to waste 10 bucks (dunno how much does a blister pack cost nowadays) for 4 tiny tanks ( specially when you can buy micro armor for much cheaper and much better qualty, notice the similarity with some old gaming company ;P ). Or for example I like console gaming and there is no way in hell I'm going to pay 600$ for a PS3, i'll wait and buy one when it's cheaper ( and i can asure you i have the cash to do so right now ).

The problem is that my inner adult is yelling inside my brain something in the lines of  "you're making a mistake if you pay so much for so little"

Of course maybe you don't have such a problem...

Oh and the thing about sculptors wages, as far as i know they get paid a gakky amount of cash, if you think that any sculptor or painter in GW makes more than 2500$ (and i'm being incredibly optimistic) a month I think you're way too optimistic. And considering the scale of sales, that's a non issue for production costs.

I agree with depres. Why do some people think GW pay there staff well? They DONT. The main painter they had at Warhammer world that did all there cool conversion and painting was not making hardly any money. I know cos I asked him plus I know enough friends and relatives who have worked there at different times.

As for selling armies at a profit? you have to be joking unless you paint to golden demon standard you will be loosing money.

Posted By beef on 11/17/2006 2:59 PM
Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

exactly... if you don't like it then don't spend the money on GW games. You won't be missed trust me because when one of us quits buying their stuff 5 or 6 little kiddies step up to take your place at the table.

And back to something that was said earlier about movies, books, and games... I know that some of you... not all... but some of you go to the movies and pay on average of $8 for a ticket and then go and spend another $5 on a large soda when you only get about 30cents of soda and a cup. I know that pricing cause I currently work for a movie theatre while I am going to college.

Posted By zero on 11/17/2006 7:22 PM

Posted By beef on 11/17/2006 2:59 PM
Time for me to get in on the Action.
@ Tiggerbaby: I see your point but remeber you are not GW main cash cow. Its the little kids that must spend mommy and daddies money on every knew army. If your so bothered dont buy GW products. Dont waste time trying to enlighten us as we are all crack whores when it comes to GW products.

exactly... if you don't like it then don't spend the money on GW games. You won't be missed trust me because when one of us quits buying their stuff 5 or 6 little kiddies step up to take your place at the table.

Sorry dude. Unless youure in an area saturated with "GW SHOPS" then that wont occur. The vets leave and then there is no one left to teach the kiddies who GW is targeting. That and a considerably lighter community makes for less free promotion of their products. If its not being played, how can it be promoted?

GW has to keep both ends happy unless they can get a corner on the market as far as closing down the FLGS's.

Helena Montana is a perfect example of this.

There are over two dozen hardcore GW gamers here, but we all refuse to promote the game to kids and newbs. We play at home.

Posted By Phryxis on 11/17/2006 4:29 PM
Here's where I get a bit lost:

People here are complaining about GW's prices, lambasting their stupidity and lack of business sense. These same people complain about how unaffordable GW's products are due to the aforementioned stupidity.

Now, if you guys are so smart, so hip to business operation, how does it come to pass that you don't have enough money laying around that you can pick up whatever GW product you want, and not feel the pinch?

I'm not a world class genius, and I've never run a business. I've also got a wife and kid to support. But I still buy whatever models and kits I need, and then probably 50% more that I never even get around to painting, and it barely even registers as an expense relative to the other stuff I'm shelling out for.

I could afford buying used chewing gum every week for $50 each. Doesn't mean I'm going to.

@Hellfury, Sorry dude when I said the vets leave I meant in the UK as the main business here is the kids not the vets as they have enough Stores. Not to sure about the states so I was in fact refering to the UK GW's as I have no idea how many they have in the US and how accesable they are for the kids.

@ Xerxes, Correct buddy just cos you can afford stuff that is crap does not meen you should buy it, unless you got no brain

actually beef, i was reffering to zero's message. i couldnt take your quote out of his.

You only need to buy official GW models if you want to take an army to an official competition or play in their shops. If you like the rules and fluff, you can buy much cheaper models from other makers and play with friends. There's tons of choice in SF 25-28mm gaming.

There's some interesting discussions going on here guys and girls but it's not news or rumours. So I've moved it here to discussions where it belongs.

 

Playstation 3.....700 bucks?

New games---60 bucks...

Controllers and accessories etc.....50 bucks.

810 dollars.....an army or two of warhammer that won't need to be replaced in 3-4 years with playstation 4.

10 space marines for 35 bucks = 3.5 dollars a marine. Goto Reaper and price one of their mini's. Warmachine figures look to be about 5.59 a fig.Holy Cow a warjack is 35 bucks??? for that little thing?

 

810 for an army? yeah if its only 1500 points worth with no oprions or scope for change. And most people add to there armies they dont just have one standard list and thats all they use.

 

Space Marine Army ( based on my Green Angels)

Space Marine Megaforce. Gives me the following units:

1 5 man sniper scout

20 marines. For ease I'll divvy them up into 2 10 man squads, with 2 plasmaguns and 2 powerfists. 1 assault squad.

2 Rhinoes ( instead of the predator and razorback).

Thats 175.

I need 3 more sniper scout squads. thats 75

1 normal scout squad....thats 20

4 lascannons and 4 heavy bolters 120

2 boxes of tactical marines for 4 5 man squads 70

1 Space Marine Veteran Squad box for Vet Sergeants 35

2 landspeeders 60

1 whirlwind 40

1 assault squad 25

Grand total is : 620. Far short of 810. And you get a 2000 point army thats well rounded, and you can add in a dreadnoght right away.

so what can your 190 buy you? How about most of my WG army?

3 boxes of Terminators 150

1 box of Blood Claws 35.

So another 35 and some bitz and I'm done. ( ok thats barebones minimum...I bought 5 boxes of Termies to do this army, and traded for the extra assault cannons).  But it can still be done.

Posted By Green Angel on 11/18/2006 1:09 PM

 

Playstation 3.....700 bucks?

New games---60 bucks...

Controllers and accessories etc.....50 bucks.

810 dollars.....an army or two of warhammer that won't need to be replaced in 3-4 years with playstation 4.

10 space marines for 35 bucks = 3.5 dollars a marine. Goto Reaper and price one of their mini's. Warmachine figures look to be about 5.59 a fig.Holy Cow a warjack is 35 bucks??? for that little thing?

Or, you could be sane and buy an X-Box 360 for 350 bucks, then wait a month or 2 for the games to drop to 1/2 price.  Or, better yet, get game fly instead of buying the games.

Oh, and there is no warjack that costs $35.  Some of the uniques are more expensive than $35, but they dwarf dreadnoughts. The rest?  Yeah, they're cheaper.  From $20 to $30. Oh, and infantry cost between 3.66 and 6.66 per model.  Most costs about 5 bucks a model.

Knight

Irrespective of how much an army cost to build its still expensive and time consuming. If you did that army over a space of a yEAR THAN nO ITS VERY CHEAP. However if you are a fast painter than that could take upto a month and then its expensive cos what do you do next month when everything is made and painted? Ok thats a bit extreme but the main point was that GW prices are expensive. Look at the drop pods. Are you seriously telling me they could not be made of plastic? The best example I can give ios the FW baneblade, It costs £160 i think and is actually based on a Russion T40 or T90 tank. you can pick that kit up in the same size as the banblade for £20 at the most. the only thing missing is the lascannons and heavy bolters and a few little bits. But the shape and design is the same. how do GW justify that? I know that If I want a baneblade I am getting a T90 instaed.

 

I drive a Ford Escort that cost me something like 15K. What's the difference between that and a Porsche? How dare they charge so much more when there's almost no difference between my car that their car!

What do you do the next month? Uhm....how about play games?

How do you address the fact that other company's miniatures are comparably priced to GW's? Warmachine figures cost more per figure then GW's, barring characters.

The Cygnar Thunderhead Heavy Warjack costs 35.99 on the Warstore site.

Plastic droppods are coming.

Heh, the PS3 is stupid. Nice job picking the absurdly-priced system to suit your needs by the way. Try the 360 for a more fair comparison. Also, the smart people sold their PS3s on eBay so they're getting their consoles for free.

Also, nice analogy by the way. Last I heard, each game you buy for a console gives you full access to that game. Buying an army does not. Better add up all the armies for WHFB/40k if you're going to compare the game (that is, ONE game) of 40k/WHFB to a console. Hell, you can even do the same thing for the entire miniatures hobby. Takes $5-10k (conservative estimate using eBay) to have full access to a single game for minis while you get the same thing for $50 in a console game.

 

You only need 1 army to play. How does buying all the armies open up the game for you? A silly arguement, and a deflection from the point and main arguement. The 40Kgame does not involve having all armies, it is having an army and playing against other people who have armies. Saying you need all the armies is ridiculous and a sleazy attempt to divert a lost cause...that is saying GW figures are overpriced.

You fail to address the fact that Warmachine figures, per figure, are priced as much or almost as much as GW ones. You need fewer Warmachine figures, which makes the game overall cost less, but then, no one says you have to play 40K at 2000 points.

is warmachine played as much as GW? Not in the UK its not. GW is the main provider of these sort of games in the UK. They have no competition here so they can charge what they like. If there was more competition here they would change there prices. Dont say that they have comp in the US as the GW prices are made here not over there.