Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Whitedragon: 

I understand where you are coming from with combos and such, however, I just can't see how a 1 turn kill works...  since I'm sure this involves Caster kill, since I find it doubtful you can kill an entire army on turn 1.  After deploy, discounting AD units, even Cavalry can't make it past the middlepoint on a charge on turn 1.  (8+3+reach), and that's assuming that your opponent RAN into the middle of the map to meet them.

Advance deploy is another story, and a one turn kill is definitely possible.  However, your opponent would have to be brain damaged to have his caster/warlock running around the front with no support where AD guys could charge / shoot him/her.  (Either that or a new player). - Which is what I mean by "fool me once".

The way I see it, we're looking at turn 2 max... (which happens often to inexperienced players for their first dozen or so games.)

Even at two turns, thats a pretty pitiful game, especially with just casual players. And you are splitting hairs with me. Who would rather play a two turn game than a one turn. Alot of people, but always two turn games are discouraging at not at all fun, for either side.

Eh, almost all of my WH/Hordes games end around turn 4/5 or when time expires (been playing mostly tournies lately).

I've only ever had one two turn game and it was the first time I faced off against a Seraph spam list. I died horribly due to my own overconfidence and inexperience, both of which were quickly remedied.

In my experience it's usually overconfidence that leads to a quick defeat, and that's not really the fault of the game itself but rather of the player.

40k has the same problem in that overconfidence and inexperience can lead to an incredibly fast defeat. The difference is that since (1)the field is larger, (2) there tends to be a higher model count, and (3) each unit moves much more slowly in 40k, it simply takes the defeated player a few extra turns to realize that they will not win or to admit inevitable defeat and concede.

Whitedragon: 

At the risk of further flogging a dead horse, where I game, 2 turn games are the exception, not the norm.  While most people seem to be of intermediate skill, there are some people whom I regularly game with are terrible tacticians... in fact, this one bloke at my local store can't win against me to save my life... 

...even so, they've grasped the three tennents of how not to autoloose:

1.  Don't march the warcaster / warlock in plain LOS / enemy charge lane.
1a. Don't charge the warcaster in unsupported unless you are going to win this turn!

2.  Don't march the warcaster directly behind a large model where they can eat AOEs and/or eat Slams.

3.  Don't leave the warcaster / warlock without focus / fury if you -do- need to expose him/her.

These three points aren't hard to grasp, and once understood, those 2 turn games seem to go away.  Exampes of these three tenents in action:

Charge lane blocking (#1) can help a warcaster potentially survive nasty stuff like:  Jackhammer charge, Sorscha's icy rush (and possibly even the POW16 mortars if you followed #3, Kreoss's pop-n-drop if you went with a full overcharge (#3).  I am of course, discounting the blessing and/or curse of the dice gods.

Fiddly stuff like E-Feora moving a POW14 fire onto your warcaster or Skarre bomb doesn't usually happen until turn 3 or after due to 12" CTRL, and the attacking warcaster following rules 1-3 (to avoid losing your Feora or Skarre before you can use your feat), and is a "fool me once" scenario.

Like you said, YMMV.

What about <4 round victories? In the new league rules you can declare a
Speedmachine boast, where you guarantee you can beat someone in 4
turns or less, or you lose the game. If you win you get extra league points.

Hm...4 rounds?? I want to ask if they meant turns...

okay, I've played some WM the last two months and two things happened.
1. I got better. I now know better what my units can do and how I can use them. I'm really surprised how much damage a simple unit of six trenchers can do.
2. I may have lost the last 3 games but that by casterkill in round 4 or 5.

but there's one thing I realized is much more fun with WM than 40k, and that's taking your enemy untis apart piece by piece. so much more satsfiyng to say: "haha, I just destroyed your cortex and your legs" then rolling dice and hope the enemy tank to explode like I do in 40k all the time.
I love the whole combo concepts. but in 6 or 7 games I tried my rangespell/gunmages/cortexblast combo it only worked twice. and my gun mages get killed by bloat thralles almost every game, but I guess that's the shame-on-me part

I really like this game, and can't wait to try out my new "toys" (Centurion, Stormguard, Trencher Sarge and sharp shooter) and I'm still pretty pissed about the fact that GW just can't get that Ork 'Dex done. hooray for Privateer!

I have seen a game DECIDED by turn one, on a one good turn of alpha striking objective mission.

I've seen fantasy games go less than a full turn......Great Shaman's head explode, rout that unit, routes another unit......nothing much left....


It happens.

Yeah. My King of the Hill match vs. an infiltrating Khador was one such game. Blech.

KoTH was an awful scenario; just gakky scenario design. Fortunately it's not part of SR3.

They just made a scenario that could be considered much worse in the "Mosh Pit" scenario.

Scenario 2 ? Mosh Pit
?Today will bring a proper fight.?
?Champion Horthol of the northern Thornwood
Description
Mosh Pit is a bitter, disorganized brawl in the center of the battlefield in which the only rule is
stay your ground.
Special Rules
Mark a 20? diameter ring in the center of the table.
Victory Conditions
After the end of the second round, a player ending his turn with one or more of his models in the
ring in the center of the table while none of his opponent?s models are in the ring wins. Wrecked
or inert warjacks, wild warbeasts, and fleeing models/units are not counted when determining
whether or not a player has won the scenario.
Also, the first player to eliminate all of their opponent?s warcasters or warlocks wins the game.
If time runs out before one player has won, the player with the most Victory Points wins. When
comparing Victory Points at the end of the game, a player scores one (1) additional Victory Point
for each enemy unit left on the table that has lost half or more of its starting number of troops.



I actually like this better than King of the Hill because

1. Caster kill is always an option
2. The concept of the mosh pit is specifically defined whereas I got to play on a crappy hill.
3. A person with one model every turn still has a chance, whereas in King of the Hill the
points kept accumulating against them until it was a foregone conclusion (if I recall the rules correctly).

I've lost many a 40k game in deployment - look, L shaped corner deployment, and open terrain board - he's got artillery and tanks, I have a melee oriented army with guns that have less range then the initial deployment distance. Boom, you loose 1/4 of your army a turn from the big guns, when you close you loose even more because you have to march through the small arms fire. I would even argue that I lost that game when the matchup was decided.

I've seen lots of WM games end on turn 2 or 3 - agressive play involves risk, so even if you think you have your warcaster shielded a well placed occulation spell can erase that shield you thought you had. Or that fox-hole or hill raising spell from Siege. freezing your opponents army so you can run around them and then charge them the next turn is a favorite tactic with EDenny and sorcha.

I had that one game, where my cry-pßlaying opponent almost chrushed pretty much every Jack I had, but then he thought he could move Aspyxious out of the bushes, and Cain was already waiting for him....so I would say that alone the possibilte of the caster-killing get's around the old 40k turn- one-or-you're-dead-problem

Posted By DarkTemplars on 01/18/2007 11:12 AM
They just made a scenario that could be considered much worse in the "Mosh Pit" scenario.

Why would Mosh Pit be considered "much worse" than King of the Hill?

I like Mosh Pit better for all of the reasons Malfred listed plus two more:  accomplishing the mission objective is an instant win and noone can win until turn three.  The first means that even pure assassination armies must pay attention to the mission objective (and thus commit some models to the center), or else lose.  The second, coupled with the large size of the circle, eliminates the advantage AD armies have in King of the Hill.