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(Browser won't let me edit previous post; apologies).

Just for reference...

* 5 FDs + Exarch, Dragon's Breath, CS, TH = 128pts
* 5 FDs + Exarch, Fire Pike, TH = 131pts
* 9 FDs + Exarch, Fire Pike, TH = 195pts

* Falcon - Pulse Laser, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, all vehicle upgrades = 220pts.

Assuming 3 Falcons, 3 FD units with Exarch + DB in Falcons = 1044pts. In VP missions, assuming you were fortunate/smart with the FDs and prevent their destruction, there are serious VP denial possibilities (granted, hardly news to most around here, but thought that I'd point it out nonetheless).

I have yet to play against such an army but it does seem like you are paying ALOT for the VP, even falcons do eventually go down (occasionally) and the tanks shooting power is not all that considering that AV12 is not too hard to shake...

You might get 4 turns of shooting out of each falcon if you are lucky and they won't kill all that, is relying on VP denial truelly such a good great tactic I wonder?

For some missions it is awsome but for others?

Snakes on a Plane is good tank hunting. Actually, the best tank hunting in the Eldar army, bar none. However, they are not really that awesome at MEq killing unless taken in ridiculous numbers (8-10). The big problem (for me anyway) is that straight snakes of a plane costs 301 points. Yeah, it's 300 points that hard to kill but they won't kill that much unless you drop the dragons on something. I'm not done building my Eldar but I did watch a Space marine army totally woop up on a MEq Eldar force that had snakes on planes. Terminators with tank hunters are pretty rough on Falcons if they get a shot. He dropped a Fire Dragon squad on those terminators and only killed two of them. They obliterated them next turn. *Shrug*

I personally like 6 Dire Avengers on a Plane. If you have bladestorm, they wipe out a GEq squad on the turn they drop, they are still pretty cheap, and they don't take an elites slot. I'd take a unit of snakes on a plane to trade for Predators, or Defilers but not MEq.

Agreed re: MEQs. They are reasonably, but hardly deadly when in smaller numbers. Granted, the combined firepower of 3 Falcons and 3 FD squads can reduce even one or two larger MEQs squads considerably, but they are hardly an anti-MEQ option in a standalone capacity.

Also agreed re: shaking Falcons. Whilst very difficult to destroy (and hence get VPs), they are easy to silence. I posit that they will still need considerable thought on how you use them (ie almost any player can probably avoid the Falcons going down or even destroying a target or 2 with the FDs. The skill factor will come in to keeping the Falcons shooting and gettings the FDs to destroy multiple targets).

At 1500, it is truly many eggs in one basket. At 1850...not quite the same issue.

Edit: As for VP denial, I'd concur that it very much depends on the mission.  One of the biggest problems (especially in smaller games such as 1500pts) would be objective grabbing where the Falcons don't count (such as most of COD).  Also, standard Alpha Missions could prove to be troublesome given that whilst the Falcons are rather durable scoring units, you still only have 3.

Escalation is the other issue that would concern me.  Granted, one can counter by hiding the FDs (easy enough usually given the smaller squad sizes), load into Falcons and off you go.  Still problematic though...(can be mitigated by an Autarch, but I would have a strong preference for 2 jetbike Farseers to Guide the Falcons....)

6 Fire Dragons : 6 shots, 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, no saves = 3.33 dead MEq
Falcon Pulse Laser : 2 shots, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, no saves = .83 dead MEq
Falcon Shuricannon + Scatterlaser : 7 shots, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail save = .97 dead MEq
Total = 5.13
Cost = 301 (with Holo-Fields, Spirt Stones and Vectored Engines)

So, if you can find a Las/Plas squad out of cover, this would be a valid way to wipe them out. Chances are, though, that sort of squad will be in cover. On the other hand:

9 Dire Avengers (Bladestorm) : 27 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail save = 3 dead MEq
Exarch (Bladestorm + Dual Cats) : 5 shots, 5/6 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 fail save = .69 dead MEq
Wave Serpent (T-L Scatterlaser): 4 shots, 3/4 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail save = .85 dead MEq
Wave Serpent Shuricannon: 3 shots, 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 fail save = .42
Total = 4.96
Cost = 307 (with Spirit Stones and Vectored Engines)

That should give you a pretty good idea why Snakes on a Plane is so highly regarded. They're more cost effective against MEqs than Dire Avengers in a Serpent, and they can still smoke any tank with ease.

I think Phryxis's numbers show exactly why the "high regard" is unfounded. It's not justified to conclude that there's a significant difference between 4.96 and 5.13. Once you add cover to the equation, the dire avengers are just as effective, but the dragons' is cut 33% to 50%. Also that avenger squad has a higher model count, but a more fragile transport. The raw numbers don't tell the whole story.

Any actual gameplay?

The most common cover where I play is 5+. The numbers adjust like this:

No cover = 5.13
5+ = 3.74 (27% loss)
4+ = 3.05 (40% loss)
3+ = 2.36 (54% loss)



They never do... But the thing about the SoaP is that they're pretty much a sure kill on any tank you can drop within 6" of. That's a big deal. There's very few tanks in the game that are worth LESS than 96 points.

The reason I'm saying they're "highly regarded" is that they give you MEq killing that's superior to Dire Avengers in a Serpent in some (uncommon) settings, and then they give you unmatched tank killing in other (very common) settings.

They also give you the opportunity to Instant Kill T4, which makes them a great tool for taking out squads of move-shoot-move Crisis suits, and any other T4 multi-wound models.

They also do vastly better at taking out tough stuff like Wraithlords and big Nids.

They're also extremely straightforward to use. You drive the Falcon up, they bail out, the tank dies. The simpler a plan, the better.

I just played a game today, 1500pts Eldar vs. Imperial Guard. I suggested that we roll for A,G, or O, but he just wanted to play Gamma. He said that escalation was less fun and it pissed him off when some of his units didn't get a chance to take part in the game. Also, he thought it made reserve rolls too powerful. So we played Gamma.

I posted a report in the Battle Report Forum so you all can take a look. I took a 10 Dire Avenger  Bladestorm unit  in a Wave Serpent and 6 Tankhunting Firepike havin' Fire Dragons in a Falcon with most of the goods.

My first thought was that It I really need a jetbike Farseer to get the most of my mech units.  A flying phalanx of Falcons, Wave Serpents and Vypers with a Farseer and some warlocks would be scary as hell.

The Fire Dragons performed pretty well, roasting a Hellhound and taking out a command section, but I think that star engines are DEFINITELY worth taking for their Falcon. The 36" boost could really help get them to a place where they can take out an enemy tank and be safe from return fire.  They and the Falcon definitely earned their points back and didn't get a scratch.

My Dire Avengers in their Serpent also did very well, but being ridiculously lucky helped.  When my opponent failed to glance with three lascannons it helped me out big time.  So did the spirit stones which prevented me frombeing stunned twice.  I think that the Serpent is a better transport for Dire Avengers because for the bladestorm to really be devastating it should be overwhelming.  This battle was against GEQs but a unit of six with only 18 shots could definitely drop the ball even against guardsmen or little nids.  I think ideally with the Serpent based bladestorm there should be no chance for the other guy to fight back or charge you.  I think that means working in concert with other units and psychic powers.

I like Vypers.  The second Vyper also got lucky, but I think with help from a Farseer and careful movement a Bright Lance wielding Vyper could be a reliable anti-vehicle unit  while the Falcons/Dragons attack MEQs and Termies, and the Wave Serpents/Dire Avengers deal with the lighter infantry.  I think its worth having a few non-Fire Dragon anti-tank units and the Vyper seems like it could be useful popping out and lighting up tanks at a key moment in the game. 

As you can see in the battle report, If I could have timed a pair of Vyper bright lance attacks to hit the basilisk right as my grav tanks were charging at him, he would have to either ignore the Vypers or risk not throwing enough fire into the frontal attack.  Then all the skimmers could move in at once with the grav tanks, who deploy the infantry, and totally crush just about anyone.

My biggest fear was that he would land a Basilisk round on the Fire Dragons when they got out of the Falcon (I would have tried to, but luckily he didn't).  This vulnerable moment is why I think a mech army needs to have super speed (i.e. star engines) and hit one area really hard all at once.

I'm pumped to keep playing this army and hope to expand it soon, to include a jetbike Farseer and a pair of convertable Fire Prism/Falcons.

Thanks for posting the actual experience, Sam.

It looks even from your report that a good combo for fire dragons is for them to work in conjunction with a unit of DA's. For the same cost, it seems to me that two identical small units of dragons in falcons couldn't have done the same job that the two different aspect squads did working together.

And escalation didn't factor into it...Which was one of my concerns.

Posted By carmachu on 11/25/2006 1:29 PM
You start with nothing on the board. Let your opponent go first.

First turn, he has no targets.
Your first, you grin and do the monkey dance, and go to the next turn.

Except of course your opponent gets to move unmolested in this turn as well as being able to setup to cover possible avenues of approach and control better terrain peices for cover.

His second turn he....still has no targets.
YOUR second turn, you should get half your army. It comes on on whichever flank you want, towards his weak point, unless he totally castled, in which case you creep up via terrain...

And again your opponent gets another turn of unmolested movement to gain superior positioning. 

And so on. You've done two things: shortened his effectiveness by 1/3, and now your dictating the terms of engagement. Making him react to you.

But he has gained free movement and better positioning and your army which is entering the table has not shot anything yet either?  Granted however you are dictating where the battle will be fought but not what force you get to fight it with (unless all your units are exactley the same).

And thats just with mech sisters. With skimmer armies like tau, DE and eldar, it gets even better.

Ya, I think skimmers are superior in this type of engagement.  Overall though I think your scenario depends on quality of available cover, you choosing to go second (although I think this is likely not an advantage because if you chose to go first that gives your opponent less time to "set up" for your approach), and how well your reserve rolls are (mine are usually crap since it seems I rarely roll what I need when I need it).  Also, how much of your opponents force is on the table from the start. Its not a totally bad position but has a greater possibility of going sideways.

I'm sure the authors of the Codex would hope as much.

The thing about the SoaP is that their attacks are shooty in nature, same as the DAs, so the timing of their deliveries will tend to match up. It would probably take an extra turn to get assault troops into the same position. So, if you want to avoid leaving the Fire Dragons alone in the middle of the enemy, DAs are probably the best choice. They also provide another Skimmer target doing the same basic thing as the Falcon, and they split incoming shooting.

That said, if the Dragons can wipe out a tank, they've already made their points back, so it might be to your advantage to have them get assaulted, and hopefully tarpit the attacking unit long enough for assault troops to get in. For example, if you had a Serpent full of Scorpions, they can move with the SoaP, stay embarked when the Dragons get out and shoot, then in the Eldar's next turn they can disembark and wipe out whatever is locked up with the Dragons. That, though, is a lot more convoluted than a plan should be.



Right, but don't forget, with a mechanized force, you're already assuming you've got the mobility to dictate where the battle will be fought. Being able to preserve that advantage is not gaining an advantage. Which is more or less what you said... But it bears repeating.

Sorry...Double post.

Posted By Scipio on 11/27/2006 11:48 AM

Posted By carmachu on 11/25/2006 1:29 PM
You start with nothing on the board. Let your opponent go first.

First turn, he has no targets.
Your first, you grin and do the monkey dance, and go to the next turn.

Except of course your opponent gets to move unmolested in this turn as well as being able to setup to cover possible avenues of approach and control better terrain peices for cover.

His second turn he....still has no targets.
YOUR second turn, you should get half your army. It comes on on whichever flank you want, towards his weak point, unless he totally castled, in which case you creep up via terrain...

And again your opponent gets another turn of unmolested movement to gain superior positioning. 

And so on. You've done two things: shortened his effectiveness by 1/3, and now your dictating the terms of engagement. Making him react to you.

But he has gained free movement and better positioning and your army which is entering the table has not shot anything yet either?  Granted however you are dictating where the battle will be fought but not what force you get to fight it with (unless all your units are exactley the same).

And thats just with mech sisters. With skimmer armies like tau, DE and eldar, it gets even better.

Ya, I think skimmers are superior in this type of engagement.  Overall though I think your scenario depends on quality of available cover, you choosing to go second (although I think this is likely not an advantage because if you chose to go first that gives your opponent less time to "set up" for your approach), and how well your reserve rolls are (mine are usually crap since it seems I rarely roll what I need when I need it).  Also, how much of your opponents force is on the table from the start. Its not a totally bad position but has a greater possibility of going sideways.

All this talking about the opponent moving unmolested for 2 rounds being the killer as to why starting with everything off the board in escalation is bad...

But then you have drop pod lists.  They operate the same way, but no one says that the enemy nullifies thier advantage because they can move for two turns...

Posted By skyth on 11/27/2006 2:15 PM
All this talking about the opponent moving unmolested for 2 rounds being the killer as to why starting with everything off the board in escalation is bad...

But then you have drop pod lists.  They operate the same way, but no one says that the enemy nullifies thier advantage because they can move for two turns...

Do they really operate the same way though?  Pods move differently for one and cost much less too and who said it was a killer anyway?   Don't get me wrong either.  I'm not saying an all mechanized force won't work all the time in escalation...lets just say its just not something I would base my strategy on.

Hmmm, I routinely base my strategy on a mechanized list that doesn't deploy anything in an escalation mission and do just fine with it. Especially with Eldar where everything is fast and hits hard, but wants the game to end before they have a chance to start losing.

if it works for ya, great.

Nobody is suggesting you can't do fine starting with everything off the table. I (and it appears Scipio is as well) am just saying that it's a disadvantage to start with nothing on the table. It's not a massive disadvantage. It's not insurmountable... It's just that it's a disadvantage, not an advantage.

Well if nothing is on the table and your vehicles are fast/long ranged, that means you will get to shoot first. Also the game will be practically 1-2 turns shorter.

Both can be an advantage.

Yeah, I'm saying it is an advantage. In addition to shooting first, for Eldar one of the biggest reasons why it's an advantage is that you never have to worry about finding enough terrain to hide your grav tanks during deployment. Your skimmers are never sitting on the ground at the top of turn one waiting to take penetrating hits if the opponent can get a shot at them.

Also two turns of unmolested movement isn't going to put infantry units in some kind of advantageous position that they didn't have during deployment.

So, in 3rd Edition, when the mission permitted it, did you choose to use the Reserves rule to start your entire army off the table?



Absolutely a valid point. However carmachu was talking about his Sisters list, and those gals don't ride skimmers. He said starting off the table was an advantage for them. Eldar and Dark Eldar have a significant variation in that their vehicles are skimmers. The WWP tactic is built around the advantages of Reserves...

For a fully or heavily mechanized Eldar list, one that might run out of terrain to hide behind, I can see the argument that starting off the table is a net advantage. It would depend a lot on mission type and deployment zones.



Sure it is... Nearly every game I've played there was at least one piece of cover I'd like to have pushed a little further into, or a place to hide a tank that wouldn't work with the deployment zones, etc. etc.  You've never found yourself wishing your deployment zone was just an inch or two further out?

Now imagine it was 12" further out.

Infantry can move 12"... That's not a guarantee of them finding 3+ pillboxes in perfect position, on top of objectives, but it does let the army get to objectives, set up in the best cover that two turns of movement will find, etc.  You go from having a quarter of the table to work with to half (typically).  You will double the terrain available to you.  Twice as many options isn't an advantage?

I also see a lot of tables (and I like this concept) that have a few particularly choice pieces of terrain towards the middle of the table, outside of typical deployment zones, that encourage the sides to move out and utilize them.  Another situation where moving 12" will get you into a good position.

The terrain matters... Two extra turns to set up matters. It's like giving the guy's entire army Scouts at double strength (i.e. two free moves). Is Scouts a throwaway ability? At double strength? I don't think so.

Okay, I see the point with a sisters list.

I'm thinking of assaulty grav tank Eldar, though, for which cover doesn't doesn't have any significant effect on the game. Anything I want to kill that's in cover gets either shot by a flamer template or assaulted by fleeting/terrain-ignoring troops with plasma grenades or banshee masks. Or flamed and then assaulted.

Right, cover isn't going to effect the assault elements of an Eldar list, i.e. Harlequins, Scorps and Banshees, who all have ways to totally ignore the effects of cover on Initiative.

I guess I'm not clear on the context we're talking about... I'm of the mind that starting with your army off the table, even with a mechanized list, is not an advantage. You appear to have isolated the primary exception, which is mechanized assaulty Eldar. I agree that the assaulty mech Eldar gain a lot from an Escalation scenario, and starting off the table looks generally an advantage for them.

But that's only them. Any other force, even shooty Eldar, is going to break even at best, as cover comes back into play against Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Bright Lances, Fusion Guns, etc... And that's shooty Eldar, who still love having their Skimmers only visible after 12" moves. Everyone else does worse still.

For example, virtually everything you're identifying that helps Eldar doesn't help Sisters. No skimmers. No way around the Initiative consequences of terrain. A much greater reliance on shooting. Only Flamers really help Sisters, and then only with the use of Faith (since AP5 and AP4 doesn't scare power armor). And mech Sisters probably do better than most lists.

A lot of what I'm talking about is the general disadvantages of starting off the table. The other guy gets two turns to move, find cover, etc... Ok, some lists have skimmers or ignore cover (via abilities or use of fire volume). But if they ALL ignored cover, it wouldn't even be in the game, right? Also, while the cover save aspects of free movement might be ignored by assaulty Eldar, there's still benefits to moving twice without fear of getting shot. There's still objective grabbing, the ability to use cover as an LOS blocker, and to generally better prepare for the assault. Not much can be said without some tables to look at and explore, but it's still two turns and 2x as much board space to set up in. Could be that there's not much to do but sit in the open and pray for good rolls on the Stun chart and bad Fleet rolls, but I think that's a pretty pessimistic view of 40K generalship and non-Eldar lists.

You've very accurately identified a list that loves Escalation, that's for sure... But to me, that's just one more argument for Escalation in moderation. Playing it every single game isn't balanced.

Mech sisters advatages:

If you move up 12", you are in range to get DG rapidfired/flamed on the turn they arrive.

DG flamers don't care about your cover.

You don't have to worry about your unsmoked rhinos getting blown up in your deployment zone.

You are halfway across the table before they get a chance to shoot at you (assuming 12" deployment zones).

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 11/29/2006 3:05 PM
I'm thinking of assaulty grav tank Eldar, though, for which cover doesn't doesn't have any significant effect on the game. Anything I want to kill that's in cover gets either shot by a flamer template or assaulted by fleeting/terrain-ignoring troops with plasma grenades or banshee masks. Or flamed and then assaulted.

As I stated earlier that grav vehicles are certainly in a "better" position in an escalation engagement.  When I say "better" of course its better compared to tracked vehicles or walkers.

But aren't eldar grav tanks closed top?  I might have to claim ignorance on the new codex but can you assault the turn you disembark?  Flamers are indeed good weapons but I hardley ever see an eldar, dark eldar, or Tau field them.  Probably cause they got better things to kill AP3 (and of course they might not have the option). 

Gaining cover is a good reason to move to a location but the other reason is moving units to get a better vantage points with more and better weapons.  Vantage points that eliminate or minimize positions that could be advantagous to your opponent and of course objectives. 

Mech armies have two choices when coming on to the table.  Commit their forces to battle or hide and gain strength.  By elimintating hiding spots I want my opponent to trickle his forces on to the table a few at a time commiting them each to battle as they arrive so they can be cut to ribbons by my forces.

As long as the (closed-top) transport has not yet moved that turn, the troops can disembark, move, fleet (if applicable) and assault that turn. The transport can move & shoot as normal after the troops disembark.

So for Eldar assault armies, that means flying up to within an inch of what you want to assault at full speed (i.e. 36") and then staying inside the tank, weathering a turn of firepower, and then assaulting the following turn.

Flamers and the destructor power are for killing massed GEqs (or 4+ save troops with destructor) standing in cover. Small, elite Eldar assault squads sometimes have trouble taking down large numbers of weedy troops, so softening them with templates first makes it easier. I used to use them more when I could take 5-model storm squads, but will use them again when I get my jetbike warlocks converted.

And this is where I picture the two turns of movement in Escalation to be of use. Simply parking a Wave Serpent or Falcon out in the open, and eating a full army's shooting, isn't going to work well in the long run. Eldar Skimmers are hard to kill, but they're not totally invulnerable. The Eldar player would like to find isolated units, or units that they can still assault from a Skimmer that's parked behind something hard. In a lot of cases, this won't be too hard... But if the "defending" player has two turns to move, he can set up better... He can spread out and create spacing so that even a successful assault only consumes one unit, and then the assault troops are shot off the table... He can also set up his units to support one another so that when the Skimmer parks, there's lots of fire on it.

Again, not that two turns of movement will create an inescapable hail of fire every time, but a normal deployment zone tends to be a little cramped, even for 1500 points. Double that space and the army can spread out more, while doing it in the most supportive fashion.

   I think Phyrxis has a good point about covering lines of fire and getting set up to knock down skimmers as they arrive in small groups.  Las/Plas squads are so good at what they do because they usually are deployed after the heavies and can set up to pick them off.  Having a couple of turns of movement means that the static shooty player can move into position to cover the good approaches and limit the places for the other guy to hide.
 
   Then the ball is in the other guy's court.  Terrain is a huge factor here of course, if the mech player can use his first turn fire or movement to make a safe corridor for his vehicles, then he can have a big advantage on a static player.  All of the sudden he has a clear route to get closer, where he can do his best work.  Most mech armies have a solid core of intense, mobile firepower that needs to be concentrated to deal with tough defenders(Las/Plas squads, Guard platoons, Broadsides).  If he can't clear that route and/or starts losing pieces, his force is likely to get broken up and not be able to work together.

   In my experience playing against mech tau/eldar and transport heavy lists, escalation means that those armies need to get lucky with the reserve rolls, which is definetely not an advantage. Eldar have autarchs now, and are fast/tough enough to get past a lot of heavy weapons fire.  But in order for them to be safe from counterattacks they need to either have good cover to protect them or be killy enough to wipe everyone in the vicinity out.  It seems to me that a competent static player with a good balance of troops, heavies, and counterattack units can make it really hard for a mech army to do that, especially if they have a turn or two to get into good positions.

Yup. I routinely deploy Las/Plas squads with the sole intention of getting a shot at a particlar, already deployed, enemy tank. To some extent this supports the argument that being off the table is an advantage...

But, on the other hand, two turns of movement give the shooty player time to set up, and while he's not setting up with clear LOS to an enemy tank, he can set up with clear LOS to a friendly unit that's likely to be attacked, which is almost as good. It's obviously not as easy as just setting up aimed at a tank, but it's not particularly hard, especially when the mech army is coming in piecemeal, and thus the shooty army has twice the points shooting as the mech army has assaulting. At least, thats the case initially, and if you dawdle looking for cover around until everyone arrives, you might as well just start on the table. As has been said, never being on the table without a 12" move in the previous turn is nice... But even the Eldar Skimmer's defensive abilities only go so far against a more numerous, entrenched, shooting focused opponent.