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Posted By logan007 on 12/06/2006 9:22 AM
No, it says in the rules the driver and crew are killed.

Every time.

Without fail.

Guess they don't have seat belts/air bags in the 41st century.

My Rhino has a big red R in the window. 

Darn, I need an equally absurd idea then since not many people are reading the rules.

 

Posted By Tiderian on 12/06/2006 12:06 AM
This is not a useful argument. 

It establishes the requirement to physically remove destroyed weapons (meaning that I either need to play with people who don't mind me using markers to demonstrate destroyed weapons, or that I need to improve my modeling skills and buy a LOT more magnets) but does not determine that the storm bolter and DCCW are a single weapon

Nope, it's a very useful argument, as it establishes what the rules are representing by an 'Armament Destroyed' result.

It doesn't require you to physically remove the weapon any more than the 'Vehicle Explodes' result forces you to fill your tank with fireworks. It's merely an explanation as to what is supposedly happening to the vehicle when you roll that result, and I reposted it in response to the suggestion that an 'Armament Destroyed' result might just be a 'damaged computer' or the like.

While it makes sense that a weapon does not have to be completely disintegrated to be no longer usable, the rules make no such distinction. So far as the rules are concerned, an 'Armament Destroyed' is a weapon that has been completely torn from the vehicle.

That's where the whole problem comes from with the Storm Bolter. If the rules say that the weapon is torn from the vehicle, then surely anything else that is built into that weapon is also torn from the vehicle.

If I pull the wall off my house, the window goes too. I can't just leave the window hanging in mid-air...

Posted By Tiderian
The DCCW and storm bolter are purchased as a unit; and sometimes appear as a single weapon and other times do not, depending on the model.  Neither of those is sufficient to link the storm bolter and DCCW as a single weapon.  Nor is model appearance and construction a basis to evaluate rules.

Indeed it is not. What DOES link them in the rules is the Dreadnought entry, that lists them as a DCCW with a built-in storm bolter.

To me the argument isn't whether the SB is built in to the DCCW (obviously it is) but rather that the result is 'weapon destroyed' not 'weaponS destroyed' or 'arm ripped off' or 'weapon and all associated weapons destroyed'

Anyway, it is rare so not that big a deal and I don't think anyone that I play against would have a problem with NOT losing both DCCW and associated weapon but it seems very clear that it is an either/or statement not an and/including statement.

Although it brings up an interesting point about sponsoon weapons that I will start another thread about now.

I can't see the argument as to why you would leave a part of the CCW operational if it was destroyed.

The Storm bolter or heavy flamer is built in to the CCW. It is a part of the CCW. If the CCW is destroyed then all parts of the CCW are destroyed. You don't get to say that a part of the CCW is still there when it gets destroyed.

It is either destroyed or it isn't.

P1. The Dreadnaught CCW has a built in Stormbolter.
P2. When a weapon destroyed result is rolled you choose a weapon to be destroyed.
C. The Dreadnaught CCW is chosen and ALL of it is destroyed including the built in storm bolter.

Posted By DaIronGob on 12/06/2006 12:35 PM
I can't see the argument as to why you would leave a part of the CCW operational if it was destroyed.

The Storm bolter or heavy flamer is built in to the CCW. It is a part of the CCW. If the CCW is destroyed then all parts of the CCW are destroyed. You don't get to say that a part of the CCW is still there when it gets destroyed.

It is either destroyed or it isn't.

P1. The Dreadnaught CCW has a built in Stormbolter.
P2. When a weapon destroyed result is rolled you choose a weapon to be destroyed.
C. The Dreadnaught CCW is chosen and ALL of it is destroyed including the built in storm bolter.

Incorrect.  I don't have my codex in from of me, but I'm pretty sure it says that the SB/HF is built into the ARM, not the CCW.  There is a difference between the Weapon and the arm.

Posted By Sinjin on 12/06/2006 1:53 PM
Incorrect.  I don't have my codex in from of me, but I'm pretty sure it says that the SB/HF is built into the ARM, not the CCW.  There is a difference between the Weapon and the arm.

...sigh...


I've already posted the quote from the codex.

Codex: Space Marines, page 32:
"The Dreadnought's left arm is equipped with a Dreadnought close combat weapon that has a built-in storm bolter"

It's built into the DCCW, NOT the arm.

Posted By insaniak on 12/06/2006 3:05 PM

Posted By Sinjin on 12/06/2006 1:53 PM
Incorrect.  I don't have my codex in from of me, but I'm pretty sure it says that the SB/HF is built into the ARM, not the CCW.  There is a difference between the Weapon and the arm.

...sigh...


I've already posted the quote from the codex.

Codex: Space Marines, page 32:
"The Dreadnought's left arm is equipped with a Dreadnought close combat weapon that has a built-in storm bolter"

It's built into the DCCW, NOT the arm.

And there you go. It is a part of the DCCW and therefore is destroyed if the DCCW is destroyed.

 

Consensus reached?

Just to look at it another way:

Can you choose to have the built in storm bolter "removed" as the weapon destroyed result?

If you can, then I'd have to say that it is equally valid to remove only the DCCW for a weapon destroyed result.  Otherwise losing both weapon systems is a double penalty.

P1a: A storm bolter is a weapon.

P1b: Weapon destroyed roll results in one weapon not being usable for the rest of the game.

C1: Therefore you may take a weapon destroyed result on the Storm Bolter.

P2a: The storm bolter may be destroyed without disabling the DCCW.

P2b: The DCCW and storm bolter are two different weapon systems on the same area of the vehicle which operate independently.

C2: The DCCW can be taken as the result of a "weapon destroyed" roll without effecting the operation of the storm bolter.

While I would like it if both weapons were gone (being that I play against beakies all the time and it would be a benefit for me), I don't think the rules support removing both weapons from a single weapon destroyed result.

You can cut off a finger. You can cut off your hand. If you cut off your hand, the fingers go with the hand. If you cut off your finger, your hand is still there.

I dont understand why there are 4 pages of this. The Bolter/DCCW are purchased with the same point cost, and the SB can be upgraded to a flamer. You lose the DCCW and the arm is ripped off (as per codex) and if there is no arm left there is no SB/HF.

Besides Logan, since when do you use a dread in something other than a cityfight anyway?
And are you showing up on saturday?

OH I'LL BE THERE -- WITH 9 DREADNOUGHTS AND 50 LAND RAIDER CRUSADERS!!!ONE111

Heh, if the trooper is man enough to show his face, I'll participate this Saturday. Otherwise I'll probably be there to help out the organizer by playing the odd person out if there isn't an even number of people that show up.

Afraid of list that smote that eldar "army"!??!?!?!

Well since I love to derail threads...

OOOOHHH  YEEEAAAAAAHHHH!!

Ill be there!!

Could you snap into a slim jim please kthx!?

And DCCW and whatever else associated with it (SB/HF) are gone when the arm is lost period. Anything else is just slimy in my opinion

Ive been on dakkadakka for almost 2 years now and I have come to realize that there are 2 kinds of people on here. Those who read the rules and accept what they say, and those who read the rules and look at what they do not say. I think GW gave us too much credit.

I have always played it that a destroyed DCCW takes the Stormbolter/Flamer with it. I don't know why, I had always thought it was said explicitly somewhere.

I think the RAW are ambiguous here. Either case can be made, and there's a lot of text that's borderline fluff, which is being treated as a rule.

The word "built-in" certainly implies that the SB/Flamer goes with the DDCW on a Weapon Destroyed, but I don't think it's conclusive. It'd be clearer if they said "the Dreadnaught's close combat arm strikes as a Power Fist in close combat, and shoots as a SB/Flamer during the shooting phase."

The fact is, a Weapon Destroyed result destroys a single weapon. That's the effect the rules outline. All the talk of "ripping off" and "built in" are fluff, IMO. Just details to add to the game. The actual rules say that one weapon goes.

But, that's my opinion. I don't think there's an ironclad case to be made.

Thing is DK that I am looking at what the rules say (one weapon is destroyed) and take it as either/or, DIG looks at the exact same rules and says the exact opposite.

It is basically whether built in means that it is one weapon or two.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter one way or the other what I think because I don't own any dreads, and if I did I would just play it however my opponent wanted to, but I do believe that the closest to RAW on this is that the SB is not lost when the DCCW is.

The SM codex tells us that the SB or HF is built into the CCW.

The rulebook tells us that a weapon is ?destroyed? (not disabled or something else similar), and in the only place it goes into more detail, states that destroyed means ?ripped off?.

As I cannot imagine a context in which you could rip something off of a vehicle without also taking any systems built into the ripped-off part, I feel the rules are sufficiently clear that the shooty goes with the crushy when it breaks.

I hate myself for continuing this thread...

If we go by the fluff you should lose your pintle mounted weapon when you lose the turret weapon. (which you probably should but that is not the rules)

My basic premise is that you lose 1/one weapon to weapon destroyed. And the DCCW and Built in Weapon (SB or HF) are two weapons.

We already covered that one.

The pintle mounted weapon is mounted on the turret, not on the turret weapon.
The Storm Bolter is mounted on the arm weapon, not the arm.

Complete opposite situations.




Phryxis: It was stated explicitly... in a 3rd ed FAQ.