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Well, I have been taking "baby steps" with PP this year - I got a starter set, enjoyed it and expanded my base army. I'm not going to take a wallet raping on the game though.

Sadly I do "believe there is a better game with better models, better service, and a better overall consumer experience at a cheaper price" GW and PP both just can take their excessive prices and shove 'em. The price of tin may be getting excessive, but raw material costs are only a fraction of the total cost - most of it comes from paying the people involved and making profit for the owners. If they are so up themselves that they believe that a model of a given size is worth a premium *just because* it is made by PP or GW then they have got overinflated egos IM(not so)HO. There are a million independent historicals companies out there who beat the pants off GW and PP for sculpting quality. And WM is a good game, but not *that* good. Again I have played as good or better from independents (such as Two Hour Wargames - 5150).

I can cross PP off my list of preferred suppliers now I guess!

Another reason GW has such high prices (that I agree with) is that they
have a critical mass of players that you can find people to play and shops
that sell. Now the shop part has changed with the advent of the Internet
(which I think has contributed to the rise of non-GW wargames), but also
GW finds that they're not the only game to achieve a sufficient playerbase.

Without the Internet, for example, I doubt I would have stayed in the
hobby. There's just no exposure to this stuff in the circles I ran around
in.

*Looks at post count*

Maybe it would have been better that way.

One increase in 3 years. And yet this now makes them like GW.

I swear they let the idiots out of the aslyum.


PP will raise them again someday, I'm sure. But if its only every 3 years....I can live with it. Especially since I need less models...

it's a hobby too guys. You either pay it or not. You don't NEED to buy anything. You WANT to buy it. Not a life or death decision. Hobbies are expensive and you pay for it. Whining and moaning about it gets us no where as well as comparing game companies or systems. Each has it's own pluses and minuses.

Either deal with it or leave.

PP is a decent company with a decent game. I don't buy much, but mostly because I don't really like the power game style atmosphere and release cycle of the next newest "greatest" thing. I do dabble in it though.

GW makes some systems I enjoy, and some figs I like. I dabble there also. I buy what I like. I don't moan about it,.. much.

The only time it becomes a problem is with figs I don't like. Or something of really bad quality. Then I don't feel I get what I paid for in comparison to other figs. I am buying a fig just for the rules then, not because I like it.

Posted By Crimson Devil on 12/05/2006 10:12 PM

Posted By 2.0 on 12/05/2006 6:46 PM

Read my lips, no new increases...

Glad I got out of WM while the getting was good, and I agree some of the same people that slam GW everytime they raise something will defend this practice by PP

Now if only you would get out of the threads talking about it.  PP still has my trust. I believe thier products are superior and getting better. An occasional price hike, doesn't bother me. Should their quality drop or they develop the "well its good enough" attitude of GW, then I'll have a problem with them.

Give in to your hate 2.0, it will make you powerful. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Theres no hate on this end, just glad i'm not playing.  Doesn't mean i can't comment as I have spent my own hard earned money on WM in the past.  Since Cavalry have been announced they have been, "Pay Like You Got a Pair" and this doesn't change that.  Everytime someone brings something like this up, ownership gets defensive and has to give us sooo many reasons why it costs so much.  Cavalry was because of thier high quality sculpts and detail  (please, there are as much detailed, weighty, great sculpts out there for 2/3 of the cost) and now he says it's because tin is up which is barely part of the cost.  Funny, I haven't heard Dark Age talk about a price increase and they have actually been around longer than PP and yet thier models are still 2/3 the price of WM on most things. 

So there is no hate, just frustration that a game I had liked to play a while back continues to disappoint me now.

I'm glad to see that alot of people are being rational about the price change. On the flipside, there are a couple who I think are blowing this out of proportion. Things change. A business has to make money in order to stay in business. If PP, for example, kept selling models at current prices and kept taking a loss from each sale... then they would go out of business.

The price of tin itself might not change the overall cost of a single model... I'd buy that. But you know what will? More personnel, new bits ordering service, packaging, publications, advertisements, salaries, brand new LARGER facilities, etc. It's called the growth of a company, people. This is a neccessary stretch so that PP will have to resources to branch out into other creative ventures. If it keeps inching in profits... it'll never grow!

Another observation: People keep viewing and broadcasting this as some outrageous price hike across the entire line. This is very innaccurate. This is the company bringing the cost of older, undervalued models in line with the current pricing structured line. Those who play have already been spending this kind of money on figures... maybe not the Trencher box, or the Bloat Thrall, or whatever, but since Apotheosis/ Hordes/ and Superiority you have been paying for the same "value per model." Think of it like golf: Hordes prices = PAR. Prime/Escalation prices=BOGEY... you need to bring that bogey to a par.

Now I am not bad mouthing anyone, or calling anybody out... hell, I don't even know you guys! I just see this as yet another bandwagon for the neverending GW vs PP krewe <I'm from New Orleans> and wanted to bring to light these observations that no one else has. I'm a gamer through and through... I enjoy both companies very much... and lord knows gamers are a touchy bunch. Just please, people, look at this rationally and not as some immature "I told you so!" instance...

Peace out, woadies! I'm bringing it back!

Khador_Bear
"The Executioner" Gencon 06

Khador Bear: They're called informed opinion. YOu should
visit the OT Zone...

Well, it was on topic... relevant to the discussion of the PP price changes.  I just wanted to add my 2 bolts and bring to light a couple of other variables I noticed other people were not mentioning.  That's all. 

I try and stay away from Off Topic forums like a plague.  Ever visit the Crow's Nest on the PP Forums? WOW... a special place.

Been visiting Dakkadakka for years yet never set up an account.  Figured why not now.  I've got time to kill at work.

KBear

Yep, never visit the OT zone either. It gets too OT here sometimes.

People get way too bent out of shape about something that is just a hobby, and a rather cheap one at that.

What gets me and makes me *angry* (in the relative, internet sense of the word) is not so much the price rise itself, as the complete tosh that is used to justify it. Raw material cost is simply not a significant factor in the equation. If it was EVERY manufacturer would be doing the same - particularly the low margin/high volume ones like Old Glory. And the truth is they are not. So PP are not telling the whole truth in citing this as the main reason. The REAL reason is (because it can only be) because they reckon they can now get away with charging these new prices for the old models. The same reason GW increase their prices. THey will make more profit that way, or so they reckon.

So why should I be *nice* if they are wanting to pump more profit out of me?

I already didn't get into Hordes because I thought the prices were ridiculous. I've stayed away from anything GW apart from Ebay in recent years for the same reason. When it comes to high prices I'm in the "won't pay, won't play" brigade fair and square.

The existance of high(er) prices does not anger me. Being lied to and patronised by someone who wants to pretend to be some sort of "fellow wargamer" does!

Yeah, sure, the guys must make a profit, and if people are willing to pay premium, then good luck to 'em. Just be honest and up front about it!

If they said "well the volume sales are going through the roof, so we are increasing prices so that we can cash in on it", then I'd have more respect. If they'd even spouted some gunk about "realigning prices to mach the newer models", at least it would be believable instead of this tosh about tin prices which doesn't even make economic sense!  Even the information he presents contradicts himself - most of the price rise happened before 2004, not in the last couple of years!

If Foundry, Reaper, Old Glory, Hasslefree, etc., etc. all increase their prices and cite the tin price rise, then I'll eat my word. Until then I'll call PP "lier, lier pants on fire!" ANd go and buy cheaper, just as nice, models from someone else!

Because for the most part PP has treated its customers with a bit of respect overall. It translates when they screw up or raise prices....

I look at it this way...

If you like Privateer Press, then you will justify the increase in price and keep playing. If you don't like the game, you'll walk away. I chose to walk away from PP a year ago and I never regretted it. Their multi part model generally fit together like poo. If the GW models fit like the PP models, there would be a total uproar.

I get disheartened when I see all the PP fanboys jump up and down proclaiming Warmachine or Hordes is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Nothing PP does is wrong and all their models are the best out there - NOT! Of all the boards that I frequent, the PP board is the most hostile.

Just my .02

Long Island: Valid... and it will be that way for eternity + 1 hour. I will agree that there are those PP fanboys who live with the attitude, "But they can do no wrong." It does get old.

You were having trouble putting PP models together? Granted some of their older sculpts have some vicious gaps... but I have found their mold making skills have improved dramatically. Bought Thorgrim Grudgehammer the other day... damn there was alot of flash on that model. Hehe... still remember the dwarf flame cannon crewman that was apparently "gutted" by a gout of flame... *sigh* good times...

"If you like Privateer Press, then you will justify the increase in price and keep playing. If you don't like the game, you'll walk away. I chose to walk away from PP a year ago and I never regretted it. Their multi part model generally fit together like poo. If the GW models fit like the PP models, there would be a total uproar."

You mean like the Landspeeder, or the Pirahna, or the metal devestators, or the characters with jump packs, or the hive tyrant's torso, or many of the WHFB models that simply have such bad mold lines or flash that you need to use green stuff just to fix them, before even considering any gaps? I am far from a PP fanboy... I enjoy WHFB, 40k, and Warmachine all the same. However, I only have had two issues with PPS models: one of shoulder pads from one of my exemplars was molded poorly (note that so far I have purchased to date, 27 exemplar models... or 54 total shoulder pads), and my Karchev was missing a part. I had replacements for both within *4* days, and I didn't even have to pay for shipping. Mold lines and flash are almost non existant on the PPS models I have purchased... even the much dreaded Harbinger was a piece of cake to assemble, with some patience and pinning.

"I get disheartened when I see all the PP fanboys jump up and down proclaiming Warmachine or Hordes is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Nothing PP does is wrong and all their models are the best out there - NOT! Of all the boards that I frequent, the PP board is the most hostile."

There are indeed many of these fanboys, and I likewise think they are wrong. PPS has plenty of poor models. However, I have to disagree about the PPS forums. They are FAR from the most hostile forum I frequent. Most people there are friendly, even to people that play 40k. When I first signed up, I was welcomed warmly, even after saying that I played 40k, and given plenty of advice on how to play, and other such things. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of people on Dakka flamed or attacked, or called cheaters, or any number of things, right in their intro post.

Posted By Osbad on 12/06/2006 10:18 AM

If Foundry, Reaper, Old Glory, Hasslefree, etc., etc. all increase their prices and cite the tin price rise, then I'll eat my word. Until then I'll call PP "lier, lier pants on fire!" ANd go and buy cheaper, just as nice, models from someone else!

Except that Old Glory, Reaper, Battlefront (Flames of War), Quality Castings and many others *all* have raised prices within the past two years, most citing the sky rocketing cost of tin. Foundry raised prices to ( and in some cases beyond) GW levels three years ago. If anything it appears that PP *waited longer than anyone else* before raising prices. And for that they're getting shellacked.

Well, Nyarly, that's interesting. I wasn't into Foundry 3 years ago so that is interesting news. However, they still maintain (on a decent sized order) a unit cost of £1 for a single infantry figure. Compare that to £2.33 for GW and a similar level for PP. Clearly tin price doesn't cover the discrepency in price between them. Neither can sculpting costs as I can't imagine Foundry pay much less for sculpting than GW which is just up the road. You are paying for IP, pure and simple, and for GW/PP to maintain their gross profit margins. At least with GW (much as I dislike them) some of that goes to maintain a set of retail outlets. With PP all that margin goes on.... what?

I hate GW's business practices with a vengeance - based on being "done over" by them (in a hobby sense) over a period of years. I have only been dealing with PP (i.e. playing WM) for a few months. But already their "Holier than thou" attitude is grating.

I'm ready to eat my words to some extent - but if the "independents" have already swallowed the price rise and yet still retain a much lower unit cost, then my conclusion remains the same:

Is GW or PP's IP worth that kind of hike, given there's nothing stopping you playing their games with cheaper proxies (or even cardboard chitties if you are ultra-cheap)? Like everyone else, I would rather play a game with "proper" miniatures. But it is ridiculous mark-ups like this that are driving me towards "generic" games which are easier to play WYSIWYG with any figures I like. Or want to take out shares in eBay...