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Posted By Tazok on 01/06/2007 8:31 AM

"only 10% of sales (are) still tied to Lords of the Rings" yet they continue to add supplements and dedicate huges sections of White Dwarf to it.

Oh, come on now - nobody reads White Dwarf anymore.

The kiddies still do...

I still get WD sometimes, just so I have something different to read while I go poopies

Honestly though...isn't that where every magazine usually ends up?

Posted By whitedragon on 01/06/2007 7:40 PM
Honestly though...isn't that where every magazine usually ends up?

Wiping Necros butt?

I hope not, I still read mine when I go poopies as well. Id hate to use a "Used" copy of WD.

Posted By Tazok on 01/06/2007 8:31 AM

GW is run by idiots they continue to dump tons of sources into a dwindling product line (LOTR).  "only 10% of sales (are) still tied to Lords of the Rings" yet they continue to add supplements and dedicate huges sections of White Dwarf to it.

Where is the increase in core game releases that they promised 6 months ago?  The codex release schedule is far behind what it was when 3rd Edition was released.

SisterJoey: Your post reminds me. I'm so hungry...

Lot of good meat on a horse. The trick is in the sauce, as horsemeat can tend to be tough.

I'd be very interested in what the landed cost of the average box actually covers. At 70% GP for an average product, I'd expect it to cover the cost of development and moulds amortised over the model's production run. Materials are cheap, so is mass production of very simple products (cast and pack essentially, no assembly really!) and doesn't require a high level of specialist skills. Main expence would be initial tooling and maintaining production runs of hundreds of different mini's possibly simultaneously (hopefully they're not actually doing that!) as well as their hobby centers. Those things although neat, must soak up so much of their bottom line its not funny. Running 344 stores worldwide can't be cheap, their expansion model that includes 100% ownership of those stores is what I believe to be the main expence that cuts into their profits. They should franchise their retail operations and trim down the number of stores and make a big push back into independant outlets and helping those centers grow.

Name that movie!

"Slaughtered this horse last week... think she's startin to turn."

R-U-N-N-O-F-T

Posted By Bombot on 01/05/2007 4:14 AM
Ok, let's first get the headline right - the revenue fell, not the profit. But apart from that yeah, their stuff is too expensive, what do they expect?

10 GW Space Marines.....35 dollars = 3.5 dollars a figure.

6 Cygnar Sword Knights 32.99= 5.5 dollars a figure.

8 Brettonian Knight 35.00=4.4 dollars a figure

3 Storm Lance Knights 51.99=17 dollars

8 Starship Troopers 19.95=2.5 dollars

20 Light Armor Troopers 29.95 = 1.5 dollars

7 Star Wars prepaints 12.00=1.7

HQ and 2 Platoons of US Infantry for Flames of War 42.00.

5 Reaper Men of Anhur 12.99 = 2.6 per figure.

GW's vehicles are priced simliarly and less then many comparable plastic model kits. I find that the models that are expensive are the characters etc. Ragnar Blackmane used to be 5 bucks, now he is 15. But all in all...compared to what seems to be the most popular game competing, Warmachine, and even with others....are the prices REALLY too expensive?

No. It's just that the scale of the game means you're buying lots of figs and
converting them only to find out that the rules are tricky to work with or GW
makes your army obsolete. This is probably not a problem in the long run as
things come and go (Eldar jetbikes, woo?) but it does sting a bit (Storm
Guardians...boo!).

So you invest a large amount of time and money into a product that feels like
you're being yanked around with when it comes to rules and army updates.

The fourth best Cohen Brothers movie.

dang, thought that would have been a hard one

Posted By General Hobbs on 01/06/2007 9:26 PM

Posted By Bombot on 01/05/2007 4:14 AM
Ok, let's first get the headline right - the revenue fell, not the profit. But apart from that yeah, their stuff is too expensive, what do they expect?

10 GW Space Marines.....35 dollars = 3.5 dollars a figure.

6 Cygnar Sword Knights 32.99= 5.5 dollars a figure.

8 Brettonian Knight 35.00=4.4 dollars a figure

3 Storm Lance Knights 51.99=17 dollars

8 Starship Troopers 19.95=2.5 dollars

20 Light Armor Troopers 29.95 = 1.5 dollars

7 Star Wars prepaints 12.00=1.7

HQ and 2 Platoons of US Infantry for Flames of War 42.00.

5 Reaper Men of Anhur 12.99 = 2.6 per figure.

GW's vehicles are priced simliarly and less then many comparable plastic model kits. I find that the models that are expensive are the characters etc. Ragnar Blackmane used to be 5 bucks, now he is 15. But all in all...compared to what seems to be the most popular game competing, Warmachine, and even with others....are the prices REALLY too expensive?

Except that those 10 space marines/8 bretonnian knights equal less than 10% of a 2000 point game or roughly 10% of a 1750 point game.  That means you're looking at, at the very least, $350 just to get a decent sized game of 40k/fantasy, with no options and just those basic troops.

Those Storm Lances/sword knights make up roughly 20-25% of a 500/750 point game.  These two are equivalent in terms of game play, so you're looking at $150-200 for a 500-750 point game WITH OPTIONS.

The per model price means absolutely nothing when it comes down to the amount of money it costs to play the game.  Heck, I can buy a Star Wars minis army for about $30 from my FLGS.  Yeah, it wouldn't be the best, but I could play the game, not that I do.  It cost way too much money to play Warhammer/40k.  Nothing will change that, unless GW doubles the number of models in each box without increasing the price.  Twenty Space Marines, forty IG, 16 Bretonnian Knights for $35 bucks would bring the cost of GW games down to a managable level.  Will that happen?  my guess is no.  Heck, that's the only thing that's kept me from getting back into 40k when I saw the new eldar.  It'd just cost way too much money.

Knight

"But all in all...compared to what seems to be the most popular game competing, Warmachine, and even with others....are the prices REALLY too expensive?"

I wouldn't be so frustrated about prices if GW started working out issues with the rules. Just start writing FAQs... listen to the problems people have, and clarify the rules. I'd think it would be a win-win situation because better rules would make more people buy... and it doesn't exactly cost a ton to write up a FAQ.

I agree with ph34r on that, for sure.

And I would probably buy White Dwarf too if it wasn't the most expensive magazine on the planet.  Or at least I would have before it turned into a catalog with mostly useless articles.

Part of GW's problem, as well, is the fact that old models that haven't changed in 7+ years are going up in price. For example... ORKS! Ork warbikes, which haven't changed since 2d ed, and Ork Wartrukks, which haven't changed since 2d Ed and Gorkamorka, have all gone up in price. If I remember correctly (its been awhile), but Ork Wartrukks were only $15 each back in the day, now they are $25 each. Bikes have only gone up a little, but they still have gone up.

So why jack up the prices on a model that hasn't changed and probably already paid off its development costs? Pure greed.

The only way GW is going to fix this is by cutting prices, firing Kirby, and getting rid of dead weight armies (even if that means LOTR, Dark Eldar or any underperforming army or gaming system that doesn't sell that readily).

I hate to say it, but maybe its better for GW to focus on their main lines, and not so much on specialist stuff. They seem to have alot of it and have had alot of it over the years.

-Jmz

this was true of WARMACHINE a ling time ago.  I spent 350 on my 750 point list.

Pistol wraiths are 33 points, I have 2.  Thats 66 points.  16.00
Leviathan, 113                                                                          30.00
so far so good,
mechanithralls: 10 cost me 41.00, they are less than 100 points.

So far, thats about 300 points, no warcaster, and I am out 89.00.

I like Terminus, he is a lovely hunk of metal, but he is also 45.00, gladly spent dollars on this wonderful model.  Now we are at 134.00, and its about 400 points. 

Start buying bane nights, sytnaxis raiders, bone jacks, to make comeptetive, non all jack army, and the costs are actually higher for my 750 point warmacnine army than for my 1500 point brood lord led tyranid force i cooked up real fast for a pick up game.

What does this have to do with this post?  Well, it quells the whole WARMACHINE is cheaper argument, that was true at the time I started playing, but is most defeniately not true now.

Also, I hope GW tanks, and the company goes through a major reorganization, as plastic models should not cost this much when they are no longer imported.

Well the main problem with GW is not the actual pricing. The problem is what folks feel what they get for the price... and that´s much more with Rackham, PP and MG.

Except that those 10 space marines/8 bretonnian knights equal less than 10% of a 2000 point game or roughly 10% of a 1750 point game.  That means you're looking at, at the very least, $350 just to get a decent sized game of 40k/fantasy, with no options and just those basic troops.

Those Storm Lances/sword knights make up roughly 20-25% of a 500/750 point game.  These two are equivalent in terms of game play, so you're looking at $150-200 for a 500-750 point game WITH OPTIONS.

The per model price means absolutely nothing when it comes down to the amount of money it costs to play the game.  Heck, I can buy a Star Wars minis army for about $30 from my FLGS.  Yeah, it wouldn't be the best, but I could play the game, not that I do.  It cost way too much money to play Warhammer/40k.  Nothing will change that, unless GW doubles the number of models in each box without increasing the price.  Twenty Space Marines, forty IG, 16 Bretonnian Knights for $35 bucks would bring the cost of GW games down to a managable level.  Will that happen?  my guess is no.  Heck, that's the only thing that's kept me from getting back into 40k when I saw the new eldar.  It'd just cost way too much money.

Knight

Can you quote me in the rules where it says you HAVE to play a 2000 point game? You can easily have fun playing 500 points, or a 1000.

I think its not that the product isn't too expensive, its that alot of gamers just can't afford to play. Is that GW's responsibility? I don't think it is. It is a company out to make money. While they should put out well written rules and try and help out stores where people play, at the end of the day thay have no obligation to lower prices to help people who don't have high incomes be able to afford their product. The same is true of cars, watches, etc.

Yes they are out to make money. But they wont make much of it if they continue to price themselves out of the market.

Simple as that.

One problem: GW's target market are people who can't afford their product.

Ooops.

Posted By Janthkin on 01/07/2007 5:19 PM

I think its not that the product isn't too expensive, its that alot of gamers just can't afford to play. Is that GW's responsibility? I don't think it is. It is a company out to make money. While they should put out well written rules and try and help out stores where people play, at the end of the day thay have no obligation to lower prices to help people who don't have high incomes be able to afford their product. The same is true of cars, watches, etc.

One problem: GW's target market are people who can't afford their product.

Ooops.

Or is it?

I started playing 40K in 1993.. back then people were saying GW was gonna tank cuz they keep raising prices. I was delivering pizza making $5 an hour plus tips. Nowadays, I have 7 different armies for 2 different games, and I buy stuff almost every month, but I'm not poor.

All hobbies are expensive. Buy a PS3 and a game a month, you'll be out the same amt of cash, or more. Buy a big screen TV and collect HD-DVD movies, you'll be out a lot of cash too. My mom loves to knit, she's not going broke buying yarn because she just buys what she needs.

You don't have to have 2-10,000pt armies to enjoy the game. You don't have to buy every shiney new model and army that comes out. You don't have to have a closet full of unopened boxes of models. Sure, there's an investment requred to get into the hobby. Same thing with building cabinets or collecting cracker jack prizes. I don't wanna see GW's prices rise any more than anyone else, but it's been happening, it's going to continue to happen, and since price hikes haven't killed GW in the last 13 years that I've been playing, I doubt they will anytime soon.

we shall see....

Posted By General Hobbs on 01/07/2007 4:00 PM

Except that those 10 space marines/8 bretonnian knights equal less than 10% of a 2000 point game or roughly 10% of a 1750 point game.  That means you're looking at, at the very least, $350 just to get a decent sized game of 40k/fantasy, with no options and just those basic troops.

Those Storm Lances/sword knights make up roughly 20-25% of a 500/750 point game.  These two are equivalent in terms of game play, so you're looking at $150-200 for a 500-750 point game WITH OPTIONS.

The per model price means absolutely nothing when it comes down to the amount of money it costs to play the game.  Heck, I can buy a Star Wars minis army for about $30 from my FLGS.  Yeah, it wouldn't be the best, but I could play the game, not that I do.  It cost way too much money to play Warhammer/40k.  Nothing will change that, unless GW doubles the number of models in each box without increasing the price.  Twenty Space Marines, forty IG, 16 Bretonnian Knights for $35 bucks would bring the cost of GW games down to a managable level.  Will that happen?  my guess is no.  Heck, that's the only thing that's kept me from getting back into 40k when I saw the new eldar.  It'd just cost way too much money.

Knight

Can you quote me in the rules where it says you HAVE to play a 2000 point game? You can easily have fun playing 500 points, or a 1000.

I think its not that the product isn't too expensive, its that alot of gamers just can't afford to play. Is that GW's responsibility? I don't think it is. It is a company out to make money. While they should put out well written rules and try and help out stores where people play, at the end of the day thay have no obligation to lower prices to help people who don't have high incomes be able to afford their product. The same is true of cars, watches, etc.

1) Tournaments hover between 1500-2000pts per army and the way the rules are written, it is at about 1850pts that an army becomes truly cohesive with a nice mix of units to play with. Sure you can stick with 500pt games, but I'd get tired of that pretty quickly and the same money I've spent on that could've gone to quite a nice stack of DVDs, CDs or second hand PC or console games. And it is a hobby that not only encourages an expansion into higher points levels, but the business model RELIES on it. And at the current rate, the model is failing because they are spending so much time and effort getting new recruits, but spend very little in the way of KEEPING them once the initial 'OMG! this is cool! minis! paint! RAR!' phase in the average 10 year old subsides or when THEY themselves need to start paying for their own hobby from their $10 an hour Maccas job.

2) Is it GW's responsibility to make their products affordable? From a business SURVIVAL perspective as well as SHAREHOLDER perspective, HELL YES. Why? If your target market is struggling to afford your products and thus not only buys less, but becomes disenfranchised with the whole shebang, your bottom line goes out the window as is the trend now. Your analogy with the cars and watches is erroneous. A car company selling a family car won't price it beyond the reach of the average middle class family. Nor would a watch company aiming at getting its products into the mainstream such as Swatch. Hobbies tend to be more pricey than other leisurely pursuits, but they are by no means and their target market does not expect, it to be the Tag Heur or Porsche of leisurely pursuits and the price as well as value for money should reflect that if the business model is to be successful.

Something struck me about GW's business model. It's the whole "income stream" thing:

What I mean is that I expect a "typical" wargamer/customer to not just buy one or two items and then not buy any more. Instead I would expect a wargamer to make a whole string of purchases over a period of time - probably several years.

This means that a gaming company probably has fewer customers per £1 than your typical manufacturing company.

Normally a manufacturer would expect to sell one or two items to a customer and never see them again until those items wore out.

This means that "customer loyalty" is a prime asset for GW or PP or whoever.

It strikes me that with GW's turnover vaporising like it is, then due to whatever reason - prices rising, perceived lack of quality in product, etc., etc., then this is the nub of the problem.

Once GW lose a customer, then pretty much he is lost for good. They haven't just not sold that one item he walked into the store to get and changed his mind about - they have also lost everything else he was going to buy over the next 10 years!

Of course, often it isn't going to be as stark as that. There'll be a period of reduced sales before the customer gets disenchanted completely. But over time this is what is going to happen.

Make no mistake about it. The financial figures indicate that GW is in serious financial trouble. They cover the period when 7th edition was splash released and still they show lower levels of sales than the year before. Remember last year's financial results? 7th edition was trumpeted as being the Great White Hope of GW for 2006. And it hasn't materialised!!

And now they are massively increasing borrowing to pay shareholders' dividends.... OUCH!!

I'm not gloating. I'm not happy at GW's problems. I'm just feeling vindicated about my opinion that they really shouldn't cheese off the "vets" like they have being doing over the last few years. A company that takes its customers for granted in the way GW does is heading for a cliff. Looks like they are only feet away from the edge now...

Oh, and by the way, whoever blames LotR for GW's downfall blows so much smoke:
The "talent" that worked on LoTR was either recruited new (Mat Ward & Adam Troke), was contract labour (Perry Twins), or sucked (Gary Morely). The only "GW talent" that was diverted temporarily to LotR was Brian Nelson. So Yah Boo Sucks to that comment!!

The only "problem" LotR caused GW (apart from giving them a massive cash windfall to squander on Directors' bonuses) was that the sales generated by the success of it masked the fact that sales of their other lines were dwindiling fast! That is a management mistake, not a product-line one.

Here endeth the sermon!

I agree with Necros on his point.

One thing to remember, at least in the UK, is that the majority of GW's target audience (as far as kids are concerned) is the middle to upper middle class. Where daddy can afford to buy his kids X amount of £ on model kits.

There were very fewer kids of lower income backgrounds that used to come to the store that i worked in. Its very sad and totally wrong, but thats GW's demographic.

Just look at the placement of stores in London. There are only hobby centres (cough) in either huge shopping malls, or reasonably well off suburban areas. The Highest concentration being in or near central london.

Because of this misled belief and faith of their target market they think that parents won't be bothered. Thus they will continue to raise prices and try to push the "prestige" level. I think they refer to there models as "high quality scale models" or some BS like that.

Personally I don't care anymore. Its all about Forgeworld for me. Theres more passion and design flair in a FW Fuel canister accessory than there is in entire GW model ranges. IA books are outstanding and really take me back to the old days of GW. And the models both tanks and now troopers are amazing.

Exopensive yes, but put a Krieg Trooper next to a plastic Cadian or a metal vostroyan... man theres no comparison in quality.