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Well, I'm willing to say that some variants of Space Marines do tend to finish high on tournaments, but right now it's only drop pods that do it so that's why I placed it lower. Shooty Space Marines can't dance with Iron Warriors so it's not worth the hassle to even try.

The UK GT 40K final tournament was played last weekend and Iron Warriors won it, drop pods coming second and Eldar third. Tyranids were fourth so the spread was pretty even except that there were 4 or 5 Chaos armies in top 10.

I still can't see what's wrong with Codex Space Marines as it is. Space Marines don't have any broken units at all unlike Chaos, and they don't get any bargain deals like Nids do with Dakkafexes. When people say Space Marines are so broken because they got this and that and this and that they always seem to be talking about an army list of 10K points. The truth is that in 1500 points (the way we play 40K in EU) all drop pod armies are painfully small and fragile and could just as well be labeled connoisseur armies instead of cheesy tournament powerhouses. The only army that does well tournament after tournament regardless of missions being played is Chaos.

Jervis is not writing the Chaos codex. Nice try though.

- Greenie

Therion - "But Yakface what you're forgeting is that the DA don't really have any strengths. They can deep strike one Terminator squad on turn one, but their Terminators are more expensive and don't got enough heavy weapons. They can scout their bikes, but they are more expensive. Their Rhinos are cheaper if you don't buy extra armor, and when you do they are almost the same price as before and just as crap as in the vanilla Codex. Now, those were the DA 'advantages'. Dont' even get me started on all the disadvantages, like overpriced assault cannons, lascannons, Dreadnoughts, Tactical Squads, Terminators, Land Speeders, Predators, and so on..."

DA have plenty of strengths. Lets go through the sections:

H.Q. In general
Downside - You dont have unlimited access to the armoury. Access is handled similar to the way it is done in Codex Eldar. This has two big problems. First means you cannot provide your own customisation and character for your army, second you cannot take a minimum HQ as all have standard equipment and options.
Upside - The Codex doesnt give rope for new players to hang themselves with by offering an open armoury. Also units get equipment upgrades at costs under that of the SM codex. Also the special characters allow major force organisation changes.

H.Q. Specific
Master - Costs 100pts and has all the normal abilities (ld10 everywhee etc). However he gets an Iron Halo as standard (normal cost 110pts).
Librarian - Gets a psychic Invulnerable save that works by rolling Ld9 or less. This equates to a 3+ -> 2+ Invulnerable save and costs an extra IIRC 20pts.

Elites
Downside - Scouts as Elites. This kills DA scouts as they compete with Deathwing. Overpriced Dreadnoughts.
Upside - Adding an Assault cannon to a Terminator Assault Squad (which is really what you are doing). The special rules are easily worth the 15pts extra you pay for the squad.

Note on weapons prices. Assault cannon are not overpriced in the new DA, they are underpriced in Codex SM. I would gladly pay 260pts rather than 240pts for a 2 assault cannon termie squad, also for what its woryh heavy flamers at 5pts are now a reasonable alternative, allowing for how you want to get your squad in close.

Troops
Downside - Veteran Sgts want them or not. Razorbacks are cheaper 50pts rather than 70pts for a mobile TL-HB turret. However Razorbacks are not really transports but accompaniment for 6 man tactical squads with heavy weapons. As you cant have a heavy weapon in a five man squad, you lose the purpose of the extra turret.
Upside - Combat squads means you can have your lascannon tac squad and a small close combat squad on the same force organisation chart.


Again lascannon and plasma cannon are now correctly priced. No way was the plasma cannon worth 20pts (its not even worth 15pts IMHO), likewise a lascannon is worth 20pts. The free bolt pistol gimic doesn't deserve to make the advantages list as you dont get CCW to go with it.

Fast Attack.
Downside - Veteran Sgts want them or not, inflated prices on bikes (slightly inflated over the normal heavily inflated bike costs).
Upside - Independant scoring attack bikes with free multimelta upgrade that dont take up space on the force organisation chart. Honestly priced Land Speeder Tornados (100pts) that are also available without using a FAC slot if you take 6 bikes.

DA can take many many FA choices even without having to field Sammael, also the bikes do have purpose. As a delivery system for Deathwing. Its bit like daemonbomb but without having to pay for icons or waiting for the daemons. Its also a bit like Rhino rush with free scout move 'survivable transports' (you have to wipe out two, preferably four three man bike teams in one turn at the most to stop Ravenrush). At the end of this you have bikes supporting your Deathwing rather than transports, so they can join in the assault too!

12 scouting bikes cost 470pts including power weapons for the vet sgts. Even with bike prices this is a better investment for assault transports than Rhinos ever were. I don't know off hand if the Attack bikes also have teleport homers.

Heavy Support.
Downside - Veteran Sgts want them or not, and who needs one in a Devastator squad. Huge price hike on sponsons.
Upsides - Devastator squads are 15pts more expensive, but who cares. They are now 10 man Long Fang packs without the need of a highly overpriced sgt to keep the fire split. I would LOVE to pay for a standard Vet Sgt if it earned me the ability to split a 10 man Dev squad.

I still prefer vanilla Space Marines, but no way are DA without their advantages. The bottom line is that SM and CSM are unbalanced, SM only appear balanced as they can hold off most forms of CSM under most circumstances if they take enough assault cannon. However too many of the weapons and units - in partiucular heavy weapons - are mispriced up or down. GW are slowly trying to fix this Codex by Codex.

That is the best synopsis of the new codex I have seen yet. Thanks for sharing your insight.

- Greenie

Well Dark Angels being my first and most loved army I have to say I am happy with the new changes.  It will make them alot more unique to play.  Maybe it is because I am not a tourny player, I am the basement, huge table, XBOX360, and stereo system player.  I don't worry whether I win or lose because modeling/converting and painting are what I enjoy most, and even if I get my ass handed to me I have fun playing.  And besides I learned a long time ago in this game everyone who plays the army will immediately call it nerfed and anyone playing against it will say its broken/overpowered.  I say just have fun with it, it is a GAME after all, not life or death.
Aztralwolf

I appreciate your playstyle aztralwolf, but I think people will begin to cotton on that you can have a VERY nasty and competetive assault army with Ravenrush.

We will see about that.

- Greenie

Don't all marines get a 'Combat Knife'? I thought that was mentioned in the FAQ for the True Grit USR.

This is my big question--and I can't believe they would leave this vague and unanswered in the DA codex. It makes the difference between an extra close combat attack or not--like true grit for free, except you'd also get +1A when charging.

THAT would make Dark Angels worthwhile methinks...

Posted By Orlanth on 03/07/2007 4:17 AM
I appreciate your playstyle aztralwolf, but I think people will begin to cotton on that you can have a VERY nasty and competetive assault army with Ravenrush.

I agree.  Once I get my DA fully updated and painted I do hope to go to a few small tourney's... just local stuff but I have finally thought about making the leap from the basement a lil bit.  But I refuse to lose my play for fun attitude, I think it will make playing in a tourny alot less stressful.  I just think FotD from a termie lib would be awesome if you get first turn and drop him right next to a buncha squads and make em run away lol.
Aztralwolf

re the cheap razorbacks, I presume the intention is that you buy a 10-man squad, split it into two 5-man combat squads, and put one into the razorback (thus unavoidably wasting one seat in the razorback, unless you can somehow have a character join that combat squad?) and let the other squad walk. Is that everyone else's interpretation? Doesn't sound a terrible way to build a cheapish semi-mechanised marine army, I suppose...

I failed to see any strengths in your list. All you did was claim that the new prices are good and the old prices were bad, but this is a weakness and not a strength as noone cares what is fair, just, and reasonable and what isn't. It's the winners we are interested about and Dark Angels don't qualify. I didn't really understand you listing combat squads as an advantage as everyone else can just take 6 min/maxed Marine squads as troops and plenty more as elites and heavy support with any possible combination of veteran skills. Nice review of the codex though.

Posted By Clang on 03/07/2007 7:01 PM
re the cheap razorbacks, I presume the intention is that you buy a 10-man squad, split it into two 5-man combat squads, and put one into the razorback (thus unavoidably wasting one seat in the razorback, unless you can somehow have a character join that combat squad?) and let the other squad walk. Is that everyone else's interpretation? Doesn't sound a terrible way to build a cheapish semi-mechanised marine army, I suppose...

But therein lies another issue,, with normal space marines you cannot buy a razorback for a 10 man squad, only for one numbering 6 or less. There is no such restriction that I noticed in the DA codex (although I could have missed it). Also, the cost for a 10 man tac squad with a rhino is much less for DA then other marines, but with the combat squads ability, this give a much greater tactical advantage. You now have two scoring units for one choice, and the abilty to leave your heavy weapon stationary in cover, holding an objective, etc.. while running the other half of the squad around in the rhino to grab other objectives. That is a huge advantage especially when given for a lesser points cost. IMHO

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 03/07/2007 3:26 PM

Don't all marines get a 'Combat Knife'? I thought that was mentioned in the FAQ for the True Grit USR.

This is my big question--and I can't believe they would leave this vague and unanswered in the DA codex. It makes the difference between an extra close combat attack or not--like true grit for free, except you'd also get +1A when charging.

The DA Codex is very clear what every marine is armed with in it's army list. Tactical Squads are armed with a Bolter and a Bolt Pistol. So units (like Veterans) can exchange their bolter for a CCW. But there is no time that a Marine is armed with all three.

Hmm, well then what's the point of having a bolt pistol? Is it really only so that you can take a shot before charging? That seems kind of pointless.

...and is the codex really also unclear on (1) whether you can buy a 10-model squad a razorback and (2) how the 10-model unit/razor deploys? My whole army concept hinges on this question, so it would really crap on my parade if they left this ambiguous in a way that makes it unplayable.

DA looks like a tactician's army.  Lots and LOTS of little units running everywhere, so you have plenty of room to put mobile scoring units in inconvienient places for the enemy.

Note that they have TL Autocannon dreads, too bad no tank hunter though.

I'd venture to say that if you can't make heavy use of combat squads, you are better off in SM than DA.  Combat Squads seem to be the point of the army, so you NEED to use that rule well.

Thank god for Termi Sgts that aren't Power Sword armed anymore.

The codex is perfectly clear. And I quote: "Tactical squads may select a Drop Pod, a Rhino, or a Razorback as a dedicated transport."

There is no restriction on squad size when selecting the transport. There is only a restriction on how many marines may fit into a transport. And it is very clear that you have to use the combat squads rule to actually use a Razorback as a transport if you take ten marines.

People need to get over the whole "well in some other edition or codex this is how it works" stuff. The only rules that matter when dealing with an army are the rules present in its own codex and the main rulebook.

I agree with Wayfarer. One needs to look at the DA Codex as a stand alone and not try and compare to old. It seems crystal clear you can take a 10 man squad and a Razorback.

What do folks think of the pretty cheap Predator? (Autcannon/Heavy Bolters) I can't think of a time I could fill 3 HS slots for this cheap in any of my armies.

Finally read the whole codex and besides a mechanised build I give it a resounding craptastic -.

Me too.

- Greenie

I am so tired of people complaining about the da codex, its very well balanced, fun to play with and against, and is probably one of the best tacticaly mobile armies around.

Lets build one for just combat squad goodness, with bikes, and a single death-wing squads, this would be very nasty in any tournament enviroment.

6 10 man tactical squads with rhino's, melta gun, plasma cannon, and a vsgt powerfist

2 6 man bike squadrons, 2 plasma guns, 2 melta's, vets with power weapons

5 Terminators with Flamer, 3 Lightning Claws, and a Thunder Hammer

2 x Librarian with with or without terminator armor, either one works if they have it stick him in the termy squad if not, in a rhino.

16 scoring units!!!, fire base with fast movement, plenty of psychic power, great fire power for anti-marine, good ways to deal with super nasty cover using squads like the fortuned ranger squads I personally use in my eldar list, Interesting Escalation tricks, and best of all no one has fielded it yet so it will suprise the hell out of folks.

Posted By citadel97501 on 03/17/2007 10:03 PM
I am so tired of people complaining about the da codex, its very well balanced, fun to play with and against, and is probably one of the best tacticaly mobile armies around.

People complain about it because you can do exactly the same things with the Space Marine codex for less points cost.  Your army comes out to at least 2200 points, yet has less firepower than a normal codex list at 1750 points.

My list is coming out very different than a normal Marine army. The fact that it is either Fearless or a vehicle was my first inclination; then again, the model count is a LOT lower than a Marine build. I don't know if having 0 las cannons is a good thing or not, but I'm soon going to find out.

The DA codex actually prompted me to started building a Marine army; something I haven't done since 1st edition. Added to that, BW bits has helped me tremendously getting specific pieces to get the army to look a bit cooler (I'm big on painting).

Point is, the DA codex plays very different from a Marine army, which is what prompted me to build one.

I'm really torn. I would like to revisit a Loyalist marine army again someday. Since vanilla marines bored the hell out of me, I may play DA. But templars have some crazy rules as well.

Capt K

Alright been playing DA for about 4 years right now. I have roughly 14k in points. My tournament list for 1750 consists of.

HQ

Azreal- Great Model combi-melta + a "relic blade" swinging 4 attacks without charge or banner delicious.
Ezekiel-Amazing model great phsycic powers and unlimited hood still. (Great against Eldar what not.)

Troops

1-10 men tactical squad with melta-gun and rocket launcher
1-10 men tactical squad with Las-cannon

Elites

1-9 man veteran squad rolling around with azreal loaded with power weapons. (2 things you may see that they can only have 3 power weapons in the codex but go read the Dark Angels GW approved FAQ definetely changes that rule. Also loaded with azreal gives them all 4+ invuls. This is an expensive unit especially when i load them up in the land Raider but when they assault an enemy on turn 1-2 they punch a mean hole in the enemy and can keep moving through.)

1-5 man veteran squad once again loaded power weapons with Ezekiel in a rhino. ( These are a little more prone to dieing and i have in fact been thinking about a different unit to run instead of them but have not come up with anything as effective.)


Dedicated Transport

2- Rhinos with Extra armor

Heavy Support

Predator- with full lascannons and Extra armor. My anti-tank. This thing is a beast and has taken more than its points worth in every game that i field it in. Funny thing is for some reason it always lives to.

Vindicator- Dozer blade and extra armor. Obvious reason to take. Do i need to explain.

Lastly Land raider- depending on what you intend to face crusader or regular eithier work. I take the regular in tournys where im more likely to face mech armies obviously. Than if im likely to face swarm armies id obviously take crusader.


Now alot of you will most likely say oh i dont know. BLAH BLAH BLAH. This is a tournament proven army. I have won 4 RTT's with it but have never taken it to GT. The Marine Corps has not given me the time i need to go to a GT.

For kill point games obviously take your men and hold fast first turn second turn assault what you can.
Objectives four combat squads put 2 in rhino's and go hold objectives.

This is a beautiful army i love it and its amazingly painted. If yall would like some battle reports or pictures let me know.

You should start your own topic in the Army List forum instead of reviving at 3 year old thread in Tactics...

Epic thread necromancy.

Also, NB4TL

You're new here so we'll take it easy on you but so you know, this thread is nearly 3 years old and not even the people who posted in it even remember it anymore. It's usually not a good idea to drag up a thread older than a month unless you have something significant to add to it. The date stamp is in the upper left of each post so you know when the post was made.

You're better off starting your own thread in Army lists so we can comment on your list.

Wo record holder for threadromancy.Frazzled is impressed. I am closing but you are welcome to start your own thread boyo.