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Posted By dreddnott on 03/15/2007 2:07 PM
The frag grenades argument is a very weak one, as you equip frag grenades but arm special and heavy weapons.

armed
–adjective

4. equipped: The students came armed with their pocket calculators.

Posted By dreddnott on 03/15/2007 2:07 PM
GWI obviously flubbed this one. "Replace" or "upgrade" or "add" are used in reference to every other weapon option in C:SM, and these are much less semantically ambiguous than the neutral "armed".

No argument there.

Posted By dreddnott on 03/15/2007 2:07 PM
But two two-handed weapons? Give me a break.

Where's the problem?

Is it really so horrifying to imagine a model carrying a bolter and a lascannon? Particularly when a newer codex allows a single model to have twin lightning claws, a pistol and a combi-weapon?

Yes, there is definitely a lot of semantic overlap between arm and equip, but they're not synonymous in general meaning. We derive the specific meaning from the context in which it is given. The context in the codex is complete crap and not worthy of applying logic to.



This is exactly why I don't play Space Marines. I do play an army with True Grit and special weapons, though, and you won't find me venturing into this territory. It really is that horrifying, Space Marine or not.

I would prefer my last shot into a charging apponant to be a las canon to the chest not two bolter rounds.

Really it is hard to believe because it has never been that way. And only D!c%$ ever claim to have there xtra weapons in games. I really wish that these arguments would get somewhere on occasion. Like a faq or something.

Where is this lightning claw and pistol and combi weapon guy??? this is just rediculous. The pistol is fine because you could theoretically weild it with claws but combi weapon? nope sorry.
Im not saying that its not there just that its silly.
If regular marines can carry all this than why do terminators always have to replace? This and all the other" i keep my weapon" conversations are BS. If GW allowed the weapons to be kept they would tell you in the BOOK. As much as they harp on the wysiwyg you bet your ass they would inform you if you could keep it. same with the chaplain and all other multi weapon weilding models.

Its not GW its all the idiots that wont be happy no matter what. No you do not get to use true grit with anything but a storm bolter and a bolter who says? Me d@m%it.

Would i ever EVER say anything if a aponant used one or two extra attacks for thinking otherwise? NO becasue this is a game. And when taken this seriously it stops being a game i want to play.  

As i said if anyone pulls this in actual game play there gonna get laughed out of the room. So whats the point of arguing it? In rogue traders they dont allow this and in games day, or in any other tournie so whay argue it?  If you want to do it at your own club fine but not one person that i know even total rules goobing jerks would do this.

 

I believe that at the last Adepticon claiming Bolters in addition to heavy or special weapons was ruled against...

I have to agree with you about letting it slide if someone else tries to pull it. I might talk to to them afterwards, but 1 or 2 extra S4 attacks per assault isn't going to make me or my army cry. As I've said before I've even put up with the big pie plate being used instead of the little one for an entire game. I might not even say anything about the bolters if they've been exquisitely modeled, but a one-handed lascannon would be beyond belief. What we need is a ruling that says Space Marines only have two hands, and that the number of hands a model has impacts the number of weapons it can carry. Sound ridiculous to you? I've heard arguments against even more intuitive things, in a game where the most important rule is to have fun and be a good sport.

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
Really it is hard to believe because it has never been that way.

Rules change.

Before 4th edition, you could charge after firing Rapid Fire weapons. Does that make it hard to believe that you can't do so now?

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
Where is this lightning claw and pistol and combi weapon guy???

Dark Angels Master

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
If regular marines can carry all this than why do terminators always have to replace?

Because the Terminator Entry says 'replace'

Why is that? Who knows. Maybe simply because their weapons are more built-in, with all the cabling and whatnot, which makes slinging their storm bolter a little more impractical.

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
As much as they harp on the wysiwyg

They do?

It gets mentioned from time to time, but it's certainly not a big feature of the current rules.

Take a glance at the model pictures in the Dark Angels Codex, and see how many Tactical Marines you can see with grenades and pistols modelled on...

Clearly GW actually aren't all that concerned with having everything on the model...

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
 No you do not get to use true grit with anything but a storm bolter and a bolter who says? Me d@m%it.

Er... who was saying otherwise...?

Posted By 5thelement on 03/15/2007 2:35 PM
In rogue traders they dont allow this and in games day, or in any other tournie so whay argue it?

Because not everyone plays in tournaments...?

And because some people like to discuss what the rules actually say, so that they are better equipped to form an opinion on how they would prefer to play...?

*amazed at how huge this topic is*

What have I done? *mild sarcasm*

Regardless of the pretty pictures in the DA codex, is there not a rule that says all items must be represented on models?

Posted By dreddnott on 03/15/2007 4:04 PM
Regardless of the pretty pictures in the DA codex, is there not a rule that says all items must be represented on models?

There is no general game rule that says that all items must be represented, although most of the Codexes have something along those lines on their Armoury page... the question then being whether or not it actually applies to models that don't have access to the Armoury, as they would have no reason to reference that page in the first place.

Interestingly enough, Codex Dark Angels merely says that any upgrades must be shown on the model. So all of those models shown without bolt pistols are actually quite legal within the Codex's rules, since bolt pistols are a standard item, not an upgrade.

Seems a little silly, but that's what they've said...


Besides, I wasn't claiming that there was no such rule. I was questioning the statement that GW are particularly obsessed with the concept of WYSIWYG...

There is also a picture (and really no ruling) of a terminator with lightning claws and a cyclone also. That mean its legit? If so ill be modelling that one up. Maybe this is better for a thread of its own???

My problem with this one is that the guidance system has always been shown as a hand held deal.

Posted By 5thelement on 03/16/2007 1:33 PM

There is also a picture (and really no ruling) of a terminator with lightning claws and a cyclone also. That mean its legit? If so ill be modelling that one up. Maybe this is better for a thread of its own???

My problem with this one is that the guidance system has always been shown as a hand held deal.

Yep it's legit...The guidance arm no longer exists in 4th edition.

Thats friggin AWWWWsome...ok next week ill post up the pics of my cyclone, lightning claw monster...HMMM can i make him a veteran sgt if i use the DA rules???

The targeter arm was dropped back with the Marine codex.

No, he can't be Veteran Sergeant.

Ok thanks guys. Sorry i have only played chaos since the release of codex marines. Until the DA release that is.
I only ask about the vet becasue i read something about him being able to be the one with the heavy weapon in a DA army list. And here i thought i was going to play mostly assault canons.
Watch a week after i make the model they will have a faq on it.