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Posted By citadel97501 on 04/08/2007 12:30 PM


P.S. Never Ever Ever! get runes of Witnessing for a farseer it will give you a tleast 4 perils of the warps a game and remembe it will instant kill farseers, if you use Eldrad simply try to cast fortune first, since you get to reroll the ghost helm save.

Try your math again.  It's not that bad, though it does increase the chances of Perils slightly.

Fortune does not allow you to re-roll the Ghosthelm.  That would be awesome, but no such luck.

Runes of witnessing are also handy if your opponent has runes of warding (and with the number of Eldrads running around, it's not that uncommon). Although the rules don't say how these two incompatible items interact, most players will just play it that they cancel each other. That makes runes of witnessing worth the extra risk.

Note: The ghosthelm does not confer a "save" as such, and thus does not interact with fortune.

In my opinion, basically all of the Eldar troops that are fast without relying on a transport are far superior to any units used in conjunction with a transport.

Examples:
Shining Spears > Howling Banshees + Wave Serpent

Warp Spiders > Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent

Guardian Jetbikes > Guardians + Wave Serpent

Farseer/Warlocks on Jetbike >>> farseer/warlocks on foot/in transport

Unless you are dedicated to a 100% vehicle/bike/jump army, I think that the viability of Eldar groundpounding armies has been increased drastically with the new codex.

If you are simply looking for units that fill the roll of vehicles in your list, then basically any of the fast-movers are an excellent choice i.e. swooping hawks, shining spears, warp spiders, guardian and seer jetbikes.

The impression that Eldar Mech > Eldar Infantry is no longer accurate, and is a holdover from 3rd edition that everyone still uses most likely because everyone has so many vehicles left over from the old army builds, when Eldar vehicles were the kings of the codex.

The viabilities of both builds I think have been equalized, but I think the infantry list has a decent chance of being the more powerful build in most circumstances. This has been my experience thus far anyways; Eldar armies including less than 5 tanks tend to flop whereas the infantry lists seem to be doing much much better.

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/10/2007 11:47 AM
Note: The ghosthelm does not confer a "save" as such, and thus does not interact with fortune.

In my opinion, basically all of the Eldar troops that are fast without relying on a transport are far superior to any units used in conjunction with a transport.

Examples:
Shining Spears > Howling Banshees + Wave Serpent

Warp Spiders > Dire Avengers + Wave Serpent

Guardian Jetbikes > Guardians + Wave Serpent

Farseer/Warlocks on Jetbike >>> farseer/warlocks on foot/in transport

Unless you are dedicated to a 100% vehicle/bike/jump army, I think that the viability of Eldar groundpounding armies has been increased drastically with the new codex.

If you are simply looking for units that fill the roll of vehicles in your list, then basically any of the fast-movers are an excellent choice i.e. swooping hawks, shining spears, warp spiders, guardian and seer jetbikes.

The impression that Eldar Mech > Eldar Infantry is no longer accurate, and is a holdover from 3rd edition that everyone still uses most likely because everyone has so many vehicles left over from the old army builds, when Eldar vehicles were the kings of the codex.

The viabilities of both builds I think have been equalized, but I think the infantry list has a decent chance of being the more powerful build in most circumstances. This has been my experience thus far anyways; Eldar armies including less than 5 tanks tend to flop whereas the infantry lists seem to be doing much much better.

while i agree with you on most of you acessments, however i have to point out the survivablity of the falcon. a unit of shinning spears will more likely than not, endure a full turn of shooting prior to engaging in cc. if you are lucky, you can find cover to hide them behind, but not all boards will supply such cover.  a falcon is mobile cover.  It can hide just as well as the bikes and in the circumstances where cover can not be found, it can endure a ton of shooting.

While you speak truth, and having some units as VP denial (i.e. "don't die" ) you can just as well lose a falcon to first turn shooting (or second turn...) as you can a shining spears squad during their one turn of exposure (which, btw, if you are using them right your opponent should have other things to worry about at the same time...). I've had my falcons fall out of the sky to autocannon on turn 1 (infiltrators...before Eldrad). The survivability of the Falcon, while great, is over-assessed by many and the key problem isn't addressed by Falcon proponents.

The problem is this: if you falcon suffers ONE damage result, it's effectiveness is nullified immediately. ONE glance, and you can't shoot, or worse you've lost a weapon. Whereas a Falcon can be neutralized in such a way by a savvy opponent, it is much, much tougher to achieve the same affect against Eldar infantry backed by an Avatar. They are fearless, and thus the only way to silence them is to kill them utterly.

Long story short: oddly enough, while the Falcon is a survivable vehicle, it is no longer the powerhouse it used to be. Infantry units cause damage every turn; this is nearly impossible to achieve with a Falcon. The ability to transport a small squad is nifty, but come at an incredibly high price if your Falcon is destroyed (has happened to me a LOT lately for some reason). Falcons have entered the realm of land raiders in that, yes, they *can* do good things, but man, do you have to pay for it!

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/11/2007 5:51 AM
While you speak truth, and having some units as VP denial (i.e. "don't die" ) you can just as well lose a falcon to first turn shooting (or second turn...) as you can a shining spears squad during their one turn of exposure (which, btw, if you are using them right your opponent should have other things to worry about at the same time...). I've had my falcons fall out of the sky to autocannon on turn 1 (infiltrators...before Eldrad). The survivability of the Falcon, while great, is over-assessed by many and the key problem isn't addressed by Falcon proponents.

The problem is this: if you falcon suffers ONE damage result, it's effectiveness is nullified immediately. ONE glance, and you can't shoot, or worse you've lost a weapon. Whereas a Falcon can be neutralized in such a way by a savvy opponent, it is much, much tougher to achieve the same affect against Eldar infantry backed by an Avatar. They are fearless, and thus the only way to silence them is to kill them utterly.

Long story short: oddly enough, while the Falcon is a survivable vehicle, it is no longer the powerhouse it used to be. Infantry units cause damage every turn; this is nearly impossible to achieve with a Falcon. The ability to transport a small squad is nifty, but come at an incredibly high price if your Falcon is destroyed (has happened to me a LOT lately for some reason). Falcons have entered the realm of land raiders in that, yes, they *can* do good things, but man, do you have to pay for it!

I would agree with your assessment, however I think the way to deal with this weakness of the Falcon is similar to dealing with many of Eldar weaknesses:  synergy with other units.  A lone Falcon is a tasty target, especially in a "mixed-arms" army with a lot of infantry and not too many vehicles, as opponents will have less targets to focus anti-tank weapons.  But Falcons in a mechanized army do better because of the proliferation of tank targets.  My anecdotal case in point is ever since I've started to play a mech list with 3 Serpents, 1 Falcon, and 2 Prisms, my Falcon has yet to be killed and is only shaken approx one or two turns a game  because the rushing Serpents are a higher priority target and the Prisms just seem to draw fire away from the Falcon.  More times than not, the Falcon's payload is its most effective weapon, and makes up for the one or two turns its shaken.  After it delivers its payload (Fire Dragons, or now Harlequins) it becomes a fantastic support tank.  For example, it may be one of the best light vehicle squadron killers in the game now, especially with the ShurCannon upgrade.  I've had my Falcon ruin a war walker squadron and a couple of  landspeeder squadrons in one turn, and  it has been available to fire because my opponent cannot afford to focus all of his anti-tank weapons at it.

Sometimes you also just have to be creative when shaken.  Tank Shock can actually be effective as it is hard to immobilize or wreck a Falcon (and spirit stones eliminate the chance of  stunning it) so it would likely survive the odd Death or Glory attack.  Also, maneuvering my Falcon (or any skimmer) to block opponent's assault lanes has won me a game or two.  Needing 6's to hit a tank in assault is good protection.. and if you play it right where they can only glance you, the best they can do is create a permanent road block since they can't "explode" the tank.

My main point is that the Falcon can shine when used in tandem with the right units, which is a staple of the Eldar.  I wouldn't consider "mixing" heavy weapon slots, i.e a Falcon, Vibrocannons, and Dark Reapers.  If I have 1 Heavy support tank (Falcon or Prism) then I will have all Heavy support tanks. 

Posted By ColonelEllios on 04/11/2007 5:51 AM
While you speak truth, and having some units as VP denial (i.e. "don't die" ) you can just as well lose a falcon to first turn shooting (or second turn...) as you can a shining spears squad during their one turn of exposure (which, btw, if you are using them right your opponent should have other things to worry about at the same time...). I've had my falcons fall out of the sky to autocannon on turn 1 (infiltrators...before Eldrad). The survivability of the Falcon, while great, is over-assessed by many and the key problem isn't addressed by Falcon proponents.

The problem is this: if you falcon suffers ONE damage result, it's effectiveness is nullified immediately. ONE glance, and you can't shoot, or worse you've lost a weapon. Whereas a Falcon can be neutralized in such a way by a savvy opponent, it is much, much tougher to achieve the same affect against Eldar infantry backed by an Avatar. They are fearless, and thus the only way to silence them is to kill them utterly.

Long story short: oddly enough, while the Falcon is a survivable vehicle, it is no longer the powerhouse it used to be. Infantry units cause damage every turn; this is nearly impossible to achieve with a Falcon. The ability to transport a small squad is nifty, but come at an incredibly high price if your Falcon is destroyed (has happened to me a LOT lately for some reason). Falcons have entered the realm of land raiders in that, yes, they *can* do good things, but man, do you have to pay for it!

Sometimes you lose the falcon first turn, first shots. Thats life, thats luck. None of us can do anything about that excpet try and hide the falcon as best as we can. However, if your opponent is concentrating all his fire power on your falcons, than the rest of your army should have less resistance. The best example i can think of, is zoom the falcon 12 inches behind cover. With its 60inch range take pot shots at units across the field. Have a unit of shinning spears shadow it. Next turn unload harliquins, move fleet charge. Move spears to support harlequins. All the mean while, have a unit like dire avengers blade storm another part in their line. and another unit theraten another area of the line.

Make it so that there are diverse threats to his army. So that he cant and wont take all his shots at your falcon(S).

Actually you want him to take all shots at your falcon. If he stuns it once then you want all other shots to go to the same falcon and not other vehicles/troops. That way your bullte magnet absorbes all shots. Therefore, if one vehicle is exposed partially you might as well leave it out in the open to take more shots.

Ex. If your oponent has 4 anti tank shots do you position your vehicles so that each gun can only see one of your vehicles (thereby making each vehicle take one anti tank shot) or let all of them see all of yours and let some shots get wasted by shooting the shaken falcon in an off chance to kill a gun or so. There is no downside to exposing yourself.

Posted By Taoofss on 04/11/2007 9:51 AM

Sometimes you lose the falcon first turn, first shots. Thats life, thats luck. None of us can do anything about that excpet try and hide the falcon as best as we can. However, if your opponent is concentrating all his fire power on your falcons, than the rest of your army should have less resistance. The best example i can think of, is zoom the falcon 12 inches behind cover. With its 60inch range take pot shots at units across the field. Have a unit of shinning spears shadow it. Next turn unload harliquins, move fleet charge. Move spears to support harlequins. All the mean while, have a unit like dire avengers blade storm another part in their line. and another unit theraten another area of the line.

Make it so that there are diverse threats to his army. So that he cant and wont take all his shots at your falcon(S).

You've just proved my point nicely. Sometimes, you lose the falcon first turn. And then the squad it's transporting. You're out 300 points and furthermore you've lost one of the few threatening units in your army. You lose a Falcon, you've lost significant capability.

Same scenario; but with infantry instead. Pick any infantry you want. Lets use shining spears, just because they have a high point cost and even light casualties can really be bad for the unit. So they get shot at first turn. If you deployed them right, only your opponent's 48" guns can shoot them. Ideally this has decreased the incoming firepower to the point where he can't wipe out the whole unit. If you're lucky, you still have a scoring unit left that can still cause damage. A falcon is guaranteed to do nothing the next turn, if it didn't suffer immobilized, weapon destroyed, or worse. Even when it does get to shoot, its BS3 is very poor compared to the BS4 of most of your troops, ensuring that if it DOES get to shoot it doesn't do much. Ultimately, it's a matter of preference, but from my experience so far it has been much easier to keep infantry alive and in the fight than vehicles, and you get more capability and redundancy to boot, instead of being stripped of all your abilities and getting to fly your falcons around doing nothing the rest of the game.

How does hiding a Falcon help you? Not only does it NOT have 60" range, but every turn it's hiding is one more turn that it's NOT being shot at by your opponent, which you point out is the entire idea of using a Falcon.

So, basically, Falcons have become lose-lose. You expose yourself, get glanced, possibly destroyed, and accomplish nothing. You hide, you get to shoot next turn, but now you've hidden for a turn and perhaps lost something more valueable because of it. Sure, you can rely on the Falcon getting its payload to the target (most of the time) but now you've invested 200+ points in a transport. Furthermore, having a unit of Shining Spears "shadow" a Falcon will accomplish nothing at all for you--there is no opponent who would *want* to engage a Falcon in assault unless it's a last ditch effort. Spears would be much better off following Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks up the field. Falcons are simply too conditional now--light terrain, escalation, and tank-hunting opponents nullify the vehicle far too effectively.

This is the other benefit of using Eldar infantry--they are specialized. You get more for your buck because as good as a unit is at one thing, it blows chunks at another. This keeps our units manageably cheap given their abilities. By investing in Falcons you may be making one small unit slightly more effective, but you've missed out on 200 points of specialization. What this translates into, in an all-mech list, is a bunch of transports carrying some troops that are good at one thing and bad at many others. So if you lose a single transport, you often lose the capability to deal with one aspect of the opponet (example: your falcon carrying your only dedicated anti-tank, your fire dragons, gets shot down, or replace dragons with banshees, etc.) With so many points invested in vehicles, you don't have enough points left to cover all of your offensive capabilities with the remaining infantry. This is one reason why Harlequins are SO popular now in mech lists--they are the only "do anything" Eldar unit left. Harlies make mech lists viable. It is debateable whether or not mech lists that don't include harlies are competitive, in my experience so far...

The harlies are a HUGE reason though. str 4 ini. 7 and 4 attacks on the charge, rending. Banshees were good but these guys can kill anything.

and by 60 inch range i mean 12 move 48 shooting.

If the falcon gets shaken on turn one, i drop the harlies off and have it fly behind cover, ensuring it would shoot next turn. if it gets to shoot in 1/2 of the turns, while bringing the harlies to CC, and absord a ton of damage, than i believe its well worth the points.

Quote:

So, basically, Falcons have become lose-lose. You expose yourself, get glanced, possibly destroyed, and accomplish nothing. You hide, you get to shoot next turn, but now you've hidden for a turn and perhaps lost something more valueable because of it.

Sorry, but they have not become lose at all. Sure they may get downed by one lucky shot, but so might all units. A unit of Shining Spears may get hit by a Defiler and die in one shot, a Wraithlord could get rended by a squadron of speeders etc. The fact is that a fully tooled up Falcon is THE most difficult tank to kill in 40K. You can afford to expose it to some firepower and have a reasonable chance of it surviving.

Falcons shouldn't be used as you state above. Wherether you expose yourself or hide, you will have achieved something. You will either by 24" closer to the enemy lines and ready for the harlie assault or dragon drop or you will have moved 12" closer and have rattled off 4-9 shots.

Being THE most reliable transport is one of the best things about them, but their ability to pack 2 S8 and 6-7 S6 shots within 24" gives them the ability to kill troops and murder light vehicles is extremely useful too. Sure you might only get 3 turns of shooting, but those harlies should also get 3-4 turns of killing without having being slaughtered by speeders etc.

One other thing on the question of cost, a tooled up Falcon costs in the region of 200 points. A tooled up unit of Spears costs more than that. They're also as easy to kill as 5 meq's. The Falcon is a damn sight harder than that and is much more likely to score at the end of a game. They definitely have their place.

Quote:

You've just proved my point nicely. Sometimes, you lose the falcon first turn. And then the squad it's transporting. You're out 300 points and furthermore you've lost one of the few threatening units in your army. You lose a Falcon, you've lost significant capability.

If you start your harlies in a Falcon that can be shot at first turn, then yes. However as nothing short of infiltrating a squad 12" away (which is suicide if the Eldar player gets first turn) can hurt harlies first turn (aside from drastically scattering ordnance which is in the lap of the dice gods) then there is no need at all to put them in a Falcon from the start. Mount them up first turn and then blaze off, easy. If the Falcon dies before they've got in, they can run across the field. Thats basic.

It makes harlies harder to use then, but its doable. I've played quite a few games where they never even got in the transport as the opportunity was there to get them in combat safely on foot. 

 

 

 

The other point which is the tipping point in the Falcons favour regardless of what it shoots.
It is there at the end of the game with 24" range to jump on objectives/table quarters/deployment zones

And since the bonus of doing a lot of these activities is the fact that you earn your cost in VP's...the essentially pay for themselves. The soaked fire/killing...etc is gravy. This can swing games dramatically.

Almost everything in other armies (Monoliths excepted) that carries that many points into its cost is blasted off the face of the board ASAP to earn max VPs....and deny max bonus VPs. Fortunately, the reputation (well deserved) of the falcon can keep it alive cause Generals wnat to reduce the reset of the force....and its too late at the end to try and take them down.

My 2 cents,
WR