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Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 04/23/2007 5:07 PM
I'm not sure I understand the issue: The VC hits ANY unit on the line drawn from the weapon out 36", no LOS is needed and terrain doesn't block it. The VC doesn't follow any standard shooting rules so how is it limited by terrain or LOS?

The issue that is being debated is where does it say it isn't limited by terrain. Just because one part of the rules doesn't apply doesn't follow that none of the rules apply. Saying it is so and proving it is so using the rules as written are two different things.

Posted By Hellfury on 04/23/2007 5:52 PM

Posted By Centurian99 on 04/23/2007 5:32 PM
Precedent isn't really applicable here. Heck, precedent is a dangerous and near-worthless thing with the Games Dev changing rules depending on which side of the bed they got up on.

I can agree with that. Especially after 3rd ed. with all the changes to ATSKNF and True Grit during that edition.

With you both on this part. Once you try and apply precedent several rules start not  to interact well with each other, and I am betting if you ignore precedent several rules start not to interact well with each other ..... ahhhhh .... life is good.

Having re-read the grammar and quality of the above sentence I think I am channeling Beef.

Posted By fullheadofhair on 04/23/2007 6:44 PM

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 04/23/2007 5:07 PM
I'm not sure I understand the issue: The VC hits ANY unit on the line drawn from the weapon out 36", no LOS is needed and terrain doesn't block it. The VC doesn't follow any standard shooting rules so how is it limited by terrain or LOS?

The issue that is being debated is where does it say it isn't limited by terrain. Just because one part of the rules doesn't apply doesn't follow that none of the rules apply. Saying it is so and proving it is so using the rules as written are two different things.

The rules themselves say, "in any direction".  They've already tossed all the picking a target rules out the window, which is where you check LOS. 

this is a question of intent of the rules vs the RAW. Intent may support requiring LOS where as the RAW does not. The vibro-cannon entry does supercede the rules for artillery as stated in the entry by using the parethesis "(the firer does not need to pick a target)".

If the firer is not selecting a target then what is he shooting at? The invisible titan infront of that guard army?

Except you have no proof that what the rules say is not what they intended.

Posted By fullheadofhair on 04/23/2007 6:44 PM

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 04/23/2007 5:07 PM
I'm not sure I understand the issue: The VC hits ANY unit on the line drawn from the weapon out 36", no LOS is needed and terrain doesn't block it. The VC doesn't follow any standard shooting rules so how is it limited by terrain or LOS?

The issue that is being debated is where does it say it isn't limited by terrain. Just because one part of the rules doesn't apply doesn't follow that none of the rules apply. Saying it is so and proving it is so using the rules as written are two different things.

What normal shooting rule does the VC follow?  The rules for the cannon are clear:  any unit on the line.  Where does LOS and terrain play into this? 

I'm not saying anything other that what is in the rules.  The rules are permissive unless dismissive.  In this case, the rule states any unit on the line drawn from the VC out is affected.  I don't see the confusion as to how terrain come into play.

He's not firing "at" anything. Pick a direction, pull the trigger.



Terrain is only invoked as a subpart of the LoS check inherent to normal shooting (i.e., can you see your target). If you don't invoke LoS, you never need to worry about terrain's effects on LoS.

P1. Normal shooting rules require that you choose a target.
P2. In picking a target, you must abide by LoS restrictions.
P3. LoS restrictions include determining if terrain blocks LoS.

C1. If you pick a target to shoot at, you determine whether terrain blocks LoS.

P4. When firing a vibrocannon, choose a direction, and measure a line out 36" from the model. Anything lying on that line is hit.

C2. Vibrocannons do not pick a target when firing.
C3. Vibrocannons do not determine whether terrain blocks LoS.