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I think that Harlies are the best all round unit for assault. Their offensive punch can't be denied. However, Scorpions got majorly screwed in the new codex. Banshees are okay, but require the support of a farseer with doom.

Capt K

Posted By Pariah Press on 05/02/2007 4:29 PM
  I like how you're willing to ignore statements from people who've actually used both units extensively in favor of abstracted mathematical formulae that merely simulate actual gameplay.  Math-hammer can only take you so far before it's time to test things out in the field. 

They get ignored for several reasons.  The first reason is because those people are clearly not putting their Harlequins in a Falcon if they are getting shot at before hitting combat.  If they aren't doing that, then the person really hasn't used them properly, so their opinion of their effectiveness is questionable.  The second reason reason is because the claim that using math just "simulates" the actual game is a sign of great ignorance.  Once in close combat, harlequins will kill 26% more MEQ per point spent on them than banshees will.  No amount of argument about how you feel about the unit will change the fact that they are 26% more effective at their job.

I think you're missing the essential issue. With the exception of the shrieker cannon guy, you're facing killer clowns on an LSD trip. With banshees you're facing every psychotic girlfriend your opponent ever had, coming at you in full PMS-I just had a fight with my mom and now your gonna pay mode. With knives. Long knives. Power weapon knives. This is not good.

Killer Klowns piling on minitrikes vs. the harpies from hell. Question solved.
(that and it takes you approximately 3.4 years to paint a harlie properly)

If I remember correctly, a Falcon has to still deposit it's troops close to the enemy one turn before they can actually assault, which gives the opponent ample opportunity to shoot at it the squad. Which is why the Shadowseer is nice, but it isn't infallible. A tornado can easily take down a whole squad of either harlequins or banshees.

Math hammer and reality are two very different things. Math hammer is in a vacuum. It can tell you what units given the best of circumstances "can" do. It doesn't mean they will always do it. Harlies are quite easily removed from the playing field, and with quite a few of those things that marines have loads of. Rapid firing and return attacks just eat them up.

Each has their place.

Posted By Toreador on 05/03/2007 8:08 AM
If I remember correctly, a Falcon has to still deposit it's troops close to the enemy one turn before they can actually assault, which gives the opponent ample opportunity to shoot at it. Which is why the Shadowseer is nice, but it isn't infallible. A tornado can easily take down a whole squad of either harlequins or banshees.

Math hammer and reality are two very different things. Math hammer is in a vacuum. It can tell you what units given the best of circumstances "can" do. It doesn't mean they will always do it. Harlies are quite easily removed from the playing field, and with quite a few of those things that marines have loads of. Rapid firing and return attacks just eat them up.

Each has their place.

You move the Falcon into position on Turn A and disembark and charge from the stationary Falcon at the start of Turn B, then move the empty Falcon later in the movement phase. At least I believe that's what's going on.

Each unit has a place, but if you're limited in terms of the number of places you can take (i.e. a game played using a points limit), then the Harlies will do a better job of covering more bases, more effectively for their points than Banshees.

Mathhammer doesn't tell you what they'll do 'given the best circumstances'. It'll tell you what they'll do on average. Rending is somewhat unpredicatable. It depends a lot on 6's coming up. Thus, it's performance varies highly from game to game. Unless you've played 2,000-3,000 games with the new Eldar, your results may just be a fluke.

Reliability and predictability, of course, are things worth spending points for (kinda the whole idea behind Marines).

I was meaning in a vacuum. As in, not being shot at before they engage, no supporting units, etc..

Usually it gives you a feel for what a unit can do against another unit, but without anything else in either army coming into play. Which is part of the problem with both harlies and banshees. A lot can trump them. Scorps are a little more survivable, but aren't near as fast. It's all give and take on all the units.

And it is correct that if you want an all around CC unit that does well on the charge vs most everything, Harlies are the one for the task.

Posted By Toreador on 05/03/2007 8:08 AM
Harlies are quite easily removed from the playing field, and with quite a few of those things that marines have loads of. Rapid firing and return attacks just eat them up.

Rapid firing and return CC attacks will eat up banshees almost as fast.  Power weapons and heavy weapons are more effective vs. banshees, and bolters are only slightly more effective against Harlies.  A rapid firing marine kills 0.45 banshees or 0.6 harlequins.

and yet Harlequins are quite a lot more in cost.

Very interesting discussion here, thanks to all participating.

One thing I disagree, though: Calling Rending "unreliable" is the same as calling the whole game unreliable. You have to throw dices around and they show numbers. Why is it more reliable if I hit/wound with high percentages then to roll some sixes in the first throw. You can always roll badly, you just notice it with rending faster. If you have 24 attacks on the charge, 4 of them will be rending. Average. That's the deal. Sometimes it will be 8, sometimes 0. That's the wonder of the die for you.

Greets
Schepp himself

I haven't done the math on this yet, but I suspect the number of dice that turn up 6's (for rending) has a higher standard deviation than 4+/4+ (Marines hitting Marines).

That is, they're less predictable and more prone to result on either end of the spectrum.

Posted By Buoyancy on 05/03/2007 6:37 AM
 The second reason reason is because the claim that using math just "simulates" the actual game is a sign of great ignorance.  Once in close combat, harlequins will kill 26% more MEQ per point spent on them than banshees will.  No amount of argument about how you feel about the unit will change the fact that they are 26% more effective at their job.

  I'm not disputing this.  I'm not ignorant of basic statistic and probability.  I'm saying that relying on math-hammer to the exclusion of experience is misleading.  Harlequins are far more vulnerable to rapid-fire, on a point-for-point basis, than Banshees.  They're far more, likely to destroy their initial target and then die to bolter-fire. 

How about this argument ? Cause they look like a bunch of "batty boys" ?


Sorry, cant stand the space elves in tights

"Batty boys" You gota be from south london

Asmodai, only insofar as something with a 16% chance of happening has a higher SD than something with a 25% chance of happening.

First, a single Harlequin attack is more likely to kill a Marine than is a Banshee attack. The number of rolls is entirely irrelevant - the Harlie has a 22.22% chance of killing a MEQ while the Banshee has a 16.67% chance. There's nothing more to understanding their offensive abilities than that - that probability entirely describes the ability of a single attack to kill a Marine. If we're supposing 27 Harlie attacks and 36 Banshee attacks (each averaging six dead Marines). This is, of course, assuming that I've gotten those probabilities correct.

From what I remember from my required stat course, the standard deviation is the sum, for all values, of (value - mean)^2 * P(value). That'd give an SD of 5 for the Banshees and 4.67 for the Harlies. The Harlies look to be more reliable - which makes sense, because, as I said earlier, something with a greater chance of happening is the more reliable. Intuitively, this makes sense - the Banshees have a greater spread of possible outcomes. After all, they could kill 36 Marines. They're at least ten times as likely to kill any given number of Marines past 19. That requires that they have a good bit of probability loaded into lower-than-average values, too.

But, to get back to the point you were making, the difference in SD between Harlie Rending and Marine's hitting Marines is only going to be slightly larger than the difference between Banshees killing Marines and Harlies killing Marines - I used 16% and 22%, you used 16% and 25%.  It's not unfair to say that 'if Rending is unreliable, the whole game is unreliable'.

Edit: I forgot that standard deviations have something to do with square roots - perhaps the SDs are sqrt(5) and sqrt(4.67).

Oh, thought of the other reason that hasn't been said by anyone else, oddly enough: composition. Take "friendlier" (less powerful, perceived or in reality) choices so what little you may lose in a battle will be made up or exceeded by your higher comp score. It's certainly a reasonable excuse to choose something other than harlies. That or if your diamond paintjobs suck.

Posted By Cpl_Saint on 04/30/2007 8:20 AM

Execute Internet forum pattern alpha!

10: Print "Question"
20: Print "Reasonable response"
30: Print "Sarcastic Joke"
40: Print "Powergamer Accusation of Cheese"
50: Print 'Pretentious Fluff-nazi response"
60: Print "If I cannot win this argument by reason I will win it by volume/heckling/becoming increasingly pompous"
70: Goto 60

Hahaha, classic