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Um, am I missing something or is it not true that Karandas would never get to actually hit anything with his powerfist unless he were fighting by himself?

If the squad Karandas is with kills even one enemy model at Initiative 2+, then a smart opponent will just pull the model in base with Karandas as the casualty, making him lose his attacks, right?

8 str 8 attacks isn't so great if you never actually get to use em.

It's 5:00 am I'm kind of tired. I just finished painting some Guardians.

1) True enough. Deploying from a Wave Serpent a 10 man squad of Banshees can cover a good 18" spread, giving you a good opportunity to take out multiple squads. Admittedly if your opponent lets you do it, he probably deserves to lose but on the other hand sometimes a Wave Serpent just won't die.

I agree regarding the following comment about Karandras, that's why he does well attacking a squad by himself if you can take advantage of his 2+ save.

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I don't want to get off-topic but ...

1) Regarding the banshees, if they are charging multiple units do they have to maintain coherency, or can they split their unit charging "closest to closest". For some reason I think I've done this in the past, I was probably cheating in retrospect.

3) As far as Karandras infiltrating, isn't this one of the all time Dakka debates? I thought it was established that was cool because an IC can be assigned to a squad before deployment. Or is that only for deep-striking.

Maugan Ra shoots 5 shots at BS5, not 4. It's not A Shuriken Cannon with 3 shots and Fast Shot for +1 = 4 Total. It's The Maugatar Aassault 4 with Fast Shot for +1 = 5

At most GT's, tegeus, you can join any character you want to any units AS the unit deploys.

Remember, GT's are fluffy fun affairs.

I agree with Tacobake...top 3 (Karandras, Jain Zar, Maugen Ra) are good, great in the right army. Bottom 3 (Fuegan, Asurmen, Baharroth) are ok, good in the right army.

I've given all of them a spin, for my Army it's Maugen Ra since my Falcons are filled with FD so I can't put Jain Zar or Karandras in them, and if I have a choice in my army between an Autarch on a bike for the Shining Spears vs Karandras or Jain Zar...Autarch it is cause the Spears are fast and they be slow.

Maugen Ra is my favorite because he's very shooty in my army, and he's got just enough CC around people aren't going to run at him like say a Smurf Master. Easy peasy.

Tacobake wrote:1) Regarding the banshees, if they are charging multiple units do they have to maintain coherency, or can they split their unit charging "closest to closest".

Always have to maintain coherency. You can split your charge, you only need to make it to your primary and only the primary charge has to make a single 'closest to closest' move. Everyone else can go willy nilly, so long as you (a) have charge range, and (b) maintain coherency.

Tacobake wrote:3) As far as Karandras infiltrating, isn't this one of the all time Dakka debates? I thought it was established that was cool because an IC can be assigned to a squad before deployment. Or is that only for deep-striking.

It can. Some people like to argue it can't, but GW is pretty firm on this at GT's--you can, and you shall.

Anarchyman99 wrote:Maugan Ra shoots 5 shots at BS5, not 4. It's not A Shuriken Cannon with 3 shots and Fast Shot for +1 = 4 Total. It's The Maugatar Aassault 4 with Fast Shot for +1 = 5

Actually the best use I've found for him is firing at 5+ armor save troops in cover with crack shot. Even Marines hate it, cause any rending hits with Crack shot up=death.

And anyone who tells me his shooting isn't any good needs to show me the other 36" rending assault cannon that hits on 2+. I swear I've looked and looked for it, but no can do.

GT house rules are GT house rules. RAW is RAW.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:GT house rules are GT house rules. RAW is RAW.

Ok.

'When deploying an Independent Character, on page 81 the rule book says that “you may specify that it starts the game already inside a unit and place it in coherency with it”.'

So, the Scorpions infiltrate and then you place him in coherency?

What'd I miss?

Nothing. That situation is totally by the book. What I said was that "Karandras can't infiltrate his squad", i.e. since he's only able to join them at the time they deploy, the Scorpions will need their own Exarch with Shadow Strike. They can't just use the PL's ability to do it.

Oooh right. Got it.

I've been using Maugan Ra lately with a foot slogging Eldar army and he's fit in very well. I had to dump the Avatar to get him, but I really haven't missed him. My HQ combo is Eldrad/Maugan Ra. I may switch and see how Avatar/Maugan Ra works. He has really helped with my tackling of Armor 13 and 14 (excluding Monoliths) because of the 5 shots with Rending ability. He also works well as a counter assault unit.

I can't speak for the other Phoenix Lords, but I'd imagine each Phoenix Lord needs to fill a particular niche for whatever army your building.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Um, am I missing something or is it not true that Karandas would never get to actually hit anything with his powerfist unless he were fighting by himself?

If the squad Karandas is with kills even one enemy model at Initiative 2+, then a smart opponent will just pull the model in base with Karandas as the casualty, making him lose his attacks, right?

8 str 8 attacks isn't so great if you never actually get to use em.

Yah, that's the biggest problem with useing him. A pitty.

Maugan Ra shoots 5 shots at BS5, not 4. It's not A Shuriken Cannon with 3 shots and Fast Shot for +1 = 4 Total. It's The Maugatar Aassault 4 with Fast Shot for +1 = 5

The problem is that you can't use fast shot and crack shot at the same time. So if you fire all 5 shots, you can't re-roll your to wound rolls and you no longer ignore cover saves. While this might be useful when you are fireing at things outside of cover, the loss of one shot to ensure your rending attacks really do ignore their armor is generally the better choice.

There is no "generally" about it. It is totally dependent on what you're shooting at. What if you're shooting at a mdoel out of cover? What if you're shooting at a vehicle? What if you're shooting at something in cover but with an inv. save? There are as many times you'd want to use FS as CS.

Phoenix wrote:The problem is that you can't use fast shot and crack shot at the same time. So if you fire all 5 shots, you can't re-roll your to wound rolls and you no longer ignore cover saves. While this might be useful when you are fireing at things outside of cover, the loss of one shot to ensure your rending attacks really do ignore their armor is generally the better choice.

You haven't been able to use both these powers since the days of 'pick your own adventure' exarchs...so what's the loss? It's a choice.

Asurmen is my personal favorite. He turns the Dire Avenger PW/SS/Fortune tarpit into an inescapable black hole with teeth. With a re-roll, his invulnerable save keeps him around through extended hand-to-hand slogs, and the Diresword can usually see off other ICs pretty quickly. And with two power-weapon wielders, they can take out most other mixed-utility squads and keep up with assault units.

I just don't like fielding Pheonix Lords without a sqaud of their Aspect, as some of their functionailty is wasted without them. In fact, the Lords' real cost is lowered if thier built-in Exarch powers are freeing up points that you would otherwise have spent on an Exarch. Then the Exarch becomes a cheap special weapon/CC weapon carrier.

Fuegan feels a bit redundant to me- Dragons already kick vehicular butt. His single-shot weapon isn't enough on his own, either. Meh.

Maugan Ra is indeed really tactically flexible, and makes Dark Reapers moreso. He makes it less of a long shot to re-purpose them for anit-light-vehicle fire when no infantry targets are available, which can be a common problem versus any mech army played with skill. With the rumored changes to Rending in 5th Ed. (rend on to-wound rolls, not to-hit), Crack Shot plus Rending is about to get very nasty. Forget ever doing Fast Shot again unless you're firing at vehicles. This will make Maugan on his own an even better choice, and one of the few that I would field squad-less.

Karandras is alright, but really needs at least a small unit of Scorps to get a two-round kill and escape combat. On the good side, he keeps those troops alive much longer (better cover), making them a better buy as well. Given the amount of anti-MEQ weapons in balanced armies, keeping your only 3+ save unit in 3+ cover is often the only way to keep them alive.

I agree with those who think Jain Zar is overkill, and will leave Banshees exposed to counterfire. Maybe against Black Templars or 'Ard boyz/megarmor, though.

Does anyone have a suggestion for unconventional Pheonix Lord/squad pairings? Like other squads, Guardians, etc.?

Um...how is AP1 on a 6 to wound better than Rending? You already have the option to use crack shot with rending, how would it somehow become better when rending is nerfed?

If Rending occurs when the to-wound roll is made, and let's say you are firing at a Carnifex....Crack shot lets you re-roll those failures, increasing the chances of successful Rends.

I forgot that crack shot also let you re-roll to wound.