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My wish list, is that at the end of this calculation, you can give us a sheet of points/effectiveness at killing falcons. I understand there's a lot going into a point calculation, but the hatred here for falcons is so strong that I'd really just accept units on a point/damage a falcon basis.

Realised the Broadside rail gun was to high when doing some checking, finally tracked that bug down (I was making ap1 goodness was a bit to goody, which carried over even after converting to glances).

Added in multi weapons per unit, and multi units per turn of shooting.  Rending, lances, hulldown, and fixed AP roll (like wraithcannon).

Heres the corrected broadside, but with the plasma added in (long range 1 shot), and for fun the combined firepower of 6 las/plas squads (1 shot plasma again) and 3 devastator squads with 4 lascannons each!

<table rules="groups" frame="void" cols="7" cellspacing="0" border="1"> <colgroup><col width="189"></col><col width="57"></col><col width="67"></col><col width="70"></col><col width="67"></col><col width="66"></col><col width="55"></col></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td width="189" height="17" bgcolor="#999999" align="right">
</td> <td width="57" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">
</td> <td width="67" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">
</td> <td width="70" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">Broadside </td> <td width="67" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">
</td> <td width="66" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">
</td> <td width="55" bgcolor="#999999" align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right">Volleys
</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="1">1</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="5">5</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="10">10</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="15">15</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="20">20</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="25">25</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right">death</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="2.03939472">2.04</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="16.3417117">16.34</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="40.4045421">40.4</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="62.3185572">62.32</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="77.7634654">77.76</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="87.4962798">87.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" align="right">outright</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="2.02331962">2.02</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="8.60560975">8.61</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="14.2167899">14.22</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="17.7779319">17.78</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="19.9396475">19.94</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="21.1899154">21.19</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" align="right">from immobillsed</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="0">0</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="7.51761008">7.52</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="22.4031313">22.4</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="34.3936716">34.39</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="41.9715021">41.97</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="46.369996">46.37</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" align="right">cumulative weapons/immob</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="0">0</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="0.149961246">0.15</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="3.66924709">3.67</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="9.99843971">10</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="15.6811411">15.68</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="19.750661">19.75</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" align="right">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" align="right">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" align="right">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" bgcolor="#999999" align="right" colspan="7">las/plas * 6 and 3 dev squads with lascannon
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right">Turns
</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="1">1</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="2">2</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="3">3</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="5">5</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td bgcolor="#c0c0c0" align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right">death</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="48.8133571">48.81</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="86.2040144">86.2</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="97.1963613">97.2</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="99.9277013">99.93</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="left" sdnum="2057;0;0.00000">
</td> <td bgcolor="#00ae00" align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="17" align="right">outright</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="16.2549123">16.25</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="21.2034518">21.2</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="22.3606826">22.36</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="22.612669">22.61</td> <td align="left">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" align="right">from immobillsed</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="25.3583256">25.36</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="43.0930964">43.09</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="47.4285038">47.43</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="48.3994116">48.4</td> <td align="left">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="18" align="right">cumulative weapons/immob</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="6.6476362">6.65</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="21.1481311">21.15</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="26.591586">26.59</td> <td align="right" sdnum="2057;" sdval="28.0865774">28.09</td> <td align="left">
</td> <td align="left">
</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
Don't know what you guys are complaining about, almost a 50/50 chance of downing a falcon on the first turn of shooting it - just need pretty much everything you've got pointing at it. :|

hahahahaha, jeez, seriosuly, that is an easy target to destroy!

So, if I face a three Falcon list, and shoot 18 lascannons and 6 plasmaguns at one until it's dead before moving to the next, I just might be able to take down all three by turn 6? By focusing the firepower of 1300 or so points (not sure here) for the whole game, I can get back like 600 or so?

Is there anyone who still wonders why people complain about the Falcon?

Posted By mughi3 on 07/27/2007 1:58 AM
im curious to see what the numbers would look like shooting against a tau hammerhead with disruption pods(at more than and less than 12" to get the hull down roll), and decoy launchers,

Looking to add a few more things in, but I only have the old tau codex, is disruption pod now hull down at over 12 or ? at under 12?  are decoys the same as old, giving a re-roll on an immobilse on the glance table only?

Yes. Over 12". Decoys same.

And from my experience broadsides are the king of anti-falcon.

Somebody should program in a battle between a falcon and an equivalent points worth of specialized anti-tank: autocannon/lascannon equipped devs and/or broadsides and/or dual missile pod suits and/or predators+ other A/T stuff. Then you can run the simulation a few hundred times and see what the likely results are. If the falcon does better or not significantly worse given its superior/speed and maneuverability, immunity to small arms fire, virtual immunity to assault and transport capability then it is definitively overpriced.

Posted By Bayard on 08/04/2007 4:53 PM
Somebody should program in a battle between a falcon and an equivalent points worth of specialized anti-tank: autocannon/lascannon equipped devs and/or broadsides and/or dual missile pod suits and/or predators+ other A/T stuff. Then you can run the simulation a few hundred times and see what the likely results are. If the falcon does better or not significantly worse given its superior/speed and maneuverability, immunity to small arms fire, virtual immunity to assault and transport capability then it is definitively underpriced.

Fixed your typo...

I don't know how easy it would be, but maybe you could program this strategy for more valid results.

My approach (and a lot of other people) to fighting falcons, is shooting them until they cant shoot next turn (IE glance with a 1-4 result) and then moving on to a new target.  If the falcon gets immobilized from these shots, I focus fire it with my anti tank, and destroy it that turn.  And if I get lucky and kill it I do a little dance, and the eldar player starts complaining about how lucky I got.  The strategy can fall apart in the late game, if I don't have enough to stun all of the falcons, but it works well in the early game.

If you can be a little more specifc about what you'd like to see I'll have a think and see what  I can do.

Specific:

A player has x number of weapons that damage the falcon.  That player fires 1 weapon at a time at the falcon (x-1 for each shot) and when it achieves a result (let the number of guns needed to achieve the result be y) of 1-4, then the remaining guns that effect falcons (x-y) fire at the next falcon until they get a result between 1-4.  Then the remaining guns (x-2y) fire at the third falcon if their is one again attempting to get an effect.  If afterwards there are more weapons left (x-3y>0) then they will fire at non falcon targets.

However if a result of a 5 is scored then the remaining weapons (let z = the exact amount of weapons fired that turn) (x-z) fire at the immobilized falcon until it is destroyed.  Then once it is destroyed any remaining weapons (let a = the amount needed to destroy the immobilized falcon) (x-(z+a)) fire at the other falcons using the above tactic.

And of course if a roll of a 6 is scored then the remaining anti tank weapons continue with the pattern above with one less falcon target.


If this program were to be very useful it would have a way to plug in exactly how much anti tank you have, so you can see what results that list would have, how often all of the falcons would be stunned, and how often one would be destroyed.

MM, sounds doable, I'll have go when I get a bit of spare time, though theres a couple of enhancements Id like to do as well.

 

 

A quick question.  I'm forgetting, once a falcon is immobilized, can you penetrate it that turn, or do you have to wait until next turn to be able to penetrate it?

@puree, if so, you could modify the program, so that (after an immobilized result) the guns continue firing at the falcon until it is stunned, and and then move on to the next falcon.  Then next turn the anti falcon guns would focus fire the immobilized falcon until it explodes.

Edit: I was pretty wrong here...

Posted By epidemicHEART on 08/10/2007 8:28 PM
A quick question.  I'm forgetting, once a falcon is immobilized, can you penetrate it that turn, or do you have to wait until next turn to be able to penetrate it?

@puree, if so, you could modify the program, so that (after an immobilized result) the guns continue firing at the falcon until it is stunned, and and then move on to the next falcon.  Then next turn the anti falcon guns would focus fire the immobilized falcon until it explodes.

To claim fast skimmer the key phrase is 'mobile skimmer', so once you have immobilised it you can start penetrating on the same turn as it is no longer 'mobile'  You can't claim it during the same volley though, as all hits have already been resolved as glancing before you immobilised it.

I've been really busy at work (important dealine looming, so I've not got anything done over last week or so.

By RAW, that's far from clear. Pg. 67, regarding skimmers that are immobilised but not destroyed: "they make a forced landing where they are and remain immobilised for the rest of the game, no longer counting as a skimmer." If a model is not a skimmer, I fail to see how it can possibly benefit from Skimmers Moving Fast.

I was remarkably bored today, so I had a play around, and have this so far:



Most of the funky weapon types don't work, neither does hull down, the falcon vehicle upgrades aren't done yet, and it only represents a single simultaneous volley of shots, but other than that it seems to work so long as you don't put out of range numbers in the boxes. Anyone have suggestions for features?

Something seems wrong there.

Given the same percentage for dead, immobilise, wpn destroy and stun I'm assuming you haven't covered holofields. Inwhich case you should get a 14.8% chance of dead and immobilise (dead).

I have feeling you are doing simple multiplication of each cannon having 1/18 chance and as you have 3 of them you get 3 * 1/18 =  1/6.  However, it doesn't work like that, e.g. 3 shots with a 50% chance of doing something do not give a 150% chance of success, they give an 87.5% chance of success.

Congrats on doing a UI though, I need one for my program, but I can't think of a nice way to display an indeterminate number of units each with an indeterminate number of different weapons.

Well, he did mention that he hadn't gotten the vehicle upgrades (presumably including H-fields) yet.

It would be really good to have such a program up and running. I never know quite how safe I should feel with my falcons.

Yes, it is simple multiplication at the moment - the maths at the back was stripped from an old program of mine used against infantry, where a destroyed rating of 200% would indicate 2 models dead. Obviously, this isn't the case with a single falcon, so i need to change that.

Edit: Ok, working on the maths here. Does the following make sense?

3 BS3 Lascannons are firing on a fast-moving falcon, front armour.

They have a 50% chance to hit each, giving a (1-(0.5 ^ 3)) = 0.875 chance of at least on hitting.

They have a 66.66666% chance to glance the falcon, giving a (1-(0.3333333 ^ 0.875)) = 0.617599 chance of at least one glance.

They have a 16.66667% chance of destroying the falcon as a result of rolling a 6, giving a (1-(0.8333333 ^ 0.617599)) = 0.106ish chance of destruction.

Is that math correct? Because my program is now spitting out 0.104 chance of destroying the falcon by a 6, and i assume the missing 0.02 is a rounding issue somewhere, or should I have paid more attention in statistics?