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Ive just checked and the only way to get a first turn charge with a Daemon Prince is to move 12" with wings; lash them forwards 2D6" and then charge 6"... actually that is pretty bad :$

Or you could use two DPs and lash twice for a 12" + 4D6" + 6" charge, though this may be excessive!

Wow, double lashwinged princes is scaring me. A lot! Someone come up with a name for this beast.

310pts!

FYI, it says "the target is moved by the Chaos player", so yes you can bunch them up for Template shots.

Though I'm much more in favor of the idea of moving the models in a great big old Congaline style for your DP's to run up and charge.

Move the Power Fist Sarge/AC up near the front of the konga line and then setup your nice 2" killzone from there meaning that your 5 WS7 S6 I6 attacks will likely make sure the squads power fist gets taken out, and if you leave enough models around, they'll likely pass their LD and pile in, only to get eaten in their turn, where the prince can consolodate and then fly, lash, repeat.


As for the name of this combo, I dunno, Lash, Slaanesh, there's got to be some funny S&M reference in there that could be used, but I'm drawing a blank. :p

There's so many ways this ability could've been very balanced. For example, in my opinion the rule should (and might) say that the target unit is moved 2D6 directly towards the Sorcerer, instead of just 'moved'. If the models can be moved in any way then one could indeed bunch the unit up or make other stupid formations out of them.

It's a very powerful ability and I don't despise it completely but what I'm not happy about is that it's pretty obvious that noone will ever hear of undivided/khorne/nurgle/tzeentch HQ choices again, and we'll yet again have a cookie cutter Chaos army list 99,99% of the population plays.

As far as first turn assaults are concerned, I don't really understand what the big deal is. I think infiltrating Princes with Daemonic Speed were much worse because they could dominate half of your own deployment zone. You can see that your opponent has a Prince or two with this new psychic power, so why do you deploy within 24" of those guys? Deploy to your table edge and take the Princes down with mobile firepower.

Three other armies in the game have perfectly good counters to psychic powers already, and if they decide not to use them, then they just have to deploy to the edges and make the Princes the primary targets for turns one and two.

There are counters of course, and first turn charges with this are actually stupidly risky if your opponent has a credible amount of Firepower.

The thing with this is what it can do to other armies since you move them 2D6" however you (the chaos player) wants them. It explicitly says that the models are moved by the Chaos player, period.

Setting it up for Turn 2/3 charges or using it to pull things out of cover to get shot is going to be huge I think.

Well, this ability won't help much against mechanised Eldar and that will definately be an uphill battle, and I can't see how most Godzilla Nids would be too hurt by it either. They've got the -5 to LD 18" bubble around them and anything moving within 24" of the Choir is going to get a worm salad in the 'nid shooting phase.

Against others? It's great that Chaos remains a competitive army. There's plenty of nerfs in the book to counter-balance a powerful psychic ability.

Vs. Mech Eldar, it's rough no question, but 9 Oblits are nothing to sneeze at. If the Mech Eldar player goes prisms, then their prisms will get stunned down. For the Harlies via Falcon delivery you're looking at lots of mobility to block the rear hatches of the falcon since the harlies most obvious targets are the Oblits and DP's, if setup right the Mech Eldar will have a hard time.

Likewise anything that's NOT in the grav tanks is in for some trouble. Spears, Spiders, if it's not hiding in a tank I can see it having problems. And The Chaos player has a LOT of firepower to play with in 9 Oblits.

Vs Nidzilla, I've not experienced the Chior first hand, but between the Lash and 9 Oblits, you pull TMC's out of Cover and then shoot the hell out of them with the Oblits. That should kill the Flyrant in a turn, and then you start pulling down Dakka Fex's or whatever else really looks scary.

Because the Princes are WS7, Fex's are hitting on 5's. With the Lash the Prince can charge Fex's that aren't around the 18" LD bubble, and his charge range is now 18" + 2D6 for the Lash. Great for killing the Sniper Fex's.

With units like raptors in there to throw at things like that, you could easily pull out one MC or a unit of your picking with the lash and assault with raptors or other units.

Nothing against Nidzilla is a walk in the Park but I think that the new Chaos actually has the tools to take the list down, which is probably half the battle vs. a Zilla player.

Take a look at the list I posted in the army list forum, it's basically 2 Lash Princes, 9 Oblits, raptors, and some obligatory CSM's. I think it could stand up to a lot, even Zilla.

Haven't the price of Obliterators been increased, while their toughness has been reduced to a flat 4, while also losing heavy bolters and autocannons? Have you seen what Fire Dragons do to 3man Obliterator squads? Additionally, Chaos lost their 5-6man las/plas squads, meaning in any case their AT firepower will be less than what is was before.

Lots of mobility to block rear hatches? What actually? Daemon Princes have T5 and a 5+ invulnerable save, and they are usually the only reasonably mobile units in the whole army. If the Daemon Princes are visible they can both be taken down in one turn by the vehicles and Autarchs.


Tyrants with implant attacks make total mincemeat out of Chaos Daemon Princes. Tyrant dual devourers cause 2,66 unsaved wounds on a Daemon Prince meaning it can easily be gunned down, and 5 implanted close combat attacks cause 2,22 unsaved wounds.


I simply think you're overestimating what you'll actually be able to fit into the army. It's all good on paper when you don't think about the points cost.


Mech Eldar go against that army by maneouvring to get LOS and then killing both Daemon Princes without even having to disembark. Holo-fields suck up the 9 lascannons like they weren't even there, then the Dragons and Harlequins run through those 9 Obliterators and the game ends a massacre regardless of what any CSM or Raptor counter charge may produce in the following turn. In my opinion it's incredibly easy to score massive VP from that army with Eldar. If you try to chase the Falcons with the Raptors you will only delay the inevitable by a turn or two because then the Raptors will be gunned down first. Two biker Autarchs wipe out a squad of 8-10 Raptors in a single turn (2,22 get killed by Reaper Launchers and 6,66 die in the first phase of close combat).

I am suprised nobody has mentioned moving falcons toward the chaos line and turning them arround for rapid fire goodness into armor 10. Much easier to down them that way (still hard).

Also, when was the last time you saw implant attacks?

The lash also keeps thos annoying dakka fexes out of shooting.
Dakka fex moves into 24 in. Lash moves it out. Fex never shoots. 155 pts to stop a 118 pt fex is a bit overkill but considering that is the heart of the nid army it is worth it.

Aeon: "Bear in mind the following

The Daemon Prince is not a IC so can be targeted
T5 3+/5++ with 4 Wounds is tough but at least its not T6 or not upgradeable to a 2+ save.
The power is instead of shooting so the Prince can only charge the unit
The power is LOS only so the Daemon Prince has to be put into harms way.
Still rude as all heck but at least they cant hide like Librarians with Fury of the Ancients...

Fair enough pojints on the Daemon Prince but even if this were all true Lash would still be borken. However according to the first post the Lash could be on a Chaos Sorceror lurking in a large unit of CSM....


Aeon: "The wording says you have to move the distance specified; so no bunching up for Obliterator Plasma Cannon shots"

The wording quoted here was "the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player" so stuff obliterators, I am more worried about having units placed in base to base in sight of a Defiler, one battlecannon shot, oh look, you all die on 2+.

This is worse than siren ever was. funnily enough we can see this just from rulebook quotes at first glance, yet there so called professional games designers cannot see this after months of design, 'testing' and preening themselves in White Dwarf about what they are doing for the Art of Games Design.

Cypher: I am suprised nobody has mentioned moving falcons toward the chaos line and turning them arround for rapid fire goodness into armor 10. Much easier to down them that way (still hard).

It wasnt mentioned because it canot be done. Vehicvles cannot be targeted.


Cypher: The lash also keeps thos annoying dakka fexes out of shooting.
Dakka fex moves into 24 in. Lash moves it out. Fex never shoots. 155 pts to stop a 118 pt fex is a bit overkill but considering that is the heart of the nid army it is worth it.

If that was the worst I got from Lash would consider myself lucky. You negate a Sorcerors shooting for a dakkafex, net win to the dakkafex as it is cheaper and has friends.

Tyranids are not too badly effected, and Carnifexes hardly affected at all. also it does nothing against Falcons and little against Harlequins (who must be seen). Sweet irony.

Everyone else is potentially in for a very hard time, its all a matter of which gets targeted first, the Chaos Sorceror/Prince or the Farseer/Inquisitor/Librarian.

Has anyone though about using this to break a units coherency? 8 man devastator squad, move the 4 lascannons 2d6 forward, and the 4 extra guys 2d6 straight back. Even if you do not manage to take out the lascannons you still shut the squad up for at least a turn as it moves back into coherency.

Posted By foil7102 on 08/06/2007 10:18 AM
Has anyone though about using this to break a units coherency? 8 man devastator squad, move the 4 lascannons 2d6 forward, and the 4 extra guys 2d6 straight back. Even if you do not manage to take out the lascannons you still shut the squad up for at least a turn as it moves back into coherency.

I would assume that except where specified the move follows normal move rules, which is that you must end up in coherency?

I can't imagine eldar having probems, Runes of warding makes the most likely result a fail (with a high chance of perils), a chaos list built around the power is likely to be pretty weak if attempts to use the power just end up killing the guy with it (or at least stopping it).

Nids can always take shadow if they start having trouble, its not as good, but it still ups the faiure rate for ld10 to about 30%, even before any scream gets in range, again a list built around that power becomes somewhat more dubious.

Same wth psy hoods.

All arimes could of course just deploy further back, barring LOS it is impossible to stop first turn lash with 12" deployement zones even if you deploy on your edge, but it will pretty much prevent first turn assaults, whilst leaving the DP way out front of the rest of the army to hopefully be shot to shreds.

A nasty power, but the 3 lists that they probably most need it against appear to have useful counters that make reliance on it a risky proposition. Theory hammer of course, time will tell.

If this list gets popular on the tourney scene, I imagine most IG armies will start including an Inquisitor with 'Hood.

Not to mention you'll see more S10 Demolisher cannons to squish DP's. (Aaaahh, perhaps this mechanic was designed by GW to induce more Vindicator Mk2 sales. )

Posted By ubermosher on 08/06/2007 11:51 AM

Not to mention you'll see more S10 Demolisher cannons to squish DP's. (Aaaahh, perhaps this mechanic was designed by GW to induce more Vindicator Mk2 sales. )

I suppose that will be the tau counter - instant death by railgun to the exposed DP.

of course deamonprices are immun to instakill (immortal warrior rule in the new codex)!!!

i think. it puts chaos in the lower end of tier1, vs others tier1 armys its good but not that good...

but vs other armys without anti-psy its just ugly (esp. tau -> broadsides,...) :/


greetings Badger

Good lord, who thought this power up? This is very broken.

The thing that stinks about it is that it punishes already weak armies. Marines have some defense in the hood, Eldar just shut down the psychic phase, and Orks may have something with the weirdboy coming back, but tau, IG, crons, etc. get hosed. I forsee EVERY IG army coming with an inquisitor.

There is almost no risk when used against an army that has no psychic defense. Tau for example, HAVE to deploy 36" away from a deamon prince with this power or they get screwed. This power is just too dominating and game changing. on a winged deamon prince, he has a 36" LOS range to pull anything within his charge range.

The only risk against an army with some defense is that it gets hooded and then the deamon prince is sitting there with his junk swining in the breeze.

Hopefully you have to abide by normal movement rules. then you can put a chump squad in front to lure the prince out and hopefully light his ass up next turn.

The worst affected are heavy weapon units.

That's it, i am swtiching to Mech Eldar.

and the funny thing is, GW still wins. Maybe they are smarter than we give them credit for.....

I found a name. The Lash of Dumbmission. Your highly trained marines just go dumb and run out in a bunched formation to be mowed down. We just went dumb sarg. It's also dumb because the first time you touch another players figs and move them around knocking off a piece and he smacks you upside the head call yourself dumb. Dumb rules right IMO if anything involves playing with other persons toys that's why you bought your own.

Posted By onlainari on 08/06/2007 3:52 AM
Wow, double lashwinged princes is scaring me. A lot! Someone come up with a name for this beast.

310pts!

I hereby nominate the names 'Slash Prince' or 'Slash Wing'

It combines Lash, with Slaanesh, and rolls off the tongue pretty easily. 

Although the Submission works in many ways also. You have no choice in the matter as the rules clearly state I can move your nicely painted figs around with my grubby hands. Submit I tell you. Play with oil all over your hands and I would probably just concede before letting my figs be bismudged.

Posted By Ebon on 08/06/2007 12:56 PM

Posted By onlainari on 08/06/2007 3:52 AM
Wow, double lashwinged princes is scaring me. A lot! Someone come up with a name for this beast.

310pts!

I hereby nominate the names 'Slash Prince' or 'Slash Wing'

It combines Lash, with Slaanesh, and rolls off the tongue pretty easily. 

I'd have thought 'Slaashnesh' was the obvious one.

I vote for slash prince. very cool name. Slash wing just has to many images of demon summoning.

I don't get why everyone is thinking that Hoods and Runes of Warding will stop the thing cold.

Admittedly it'll stop some, but it's nowhere near a guaranteed shutdown, especially if there are two princes with it.

The Chior isn't all that either, it's not hard to make sure you setup your Prince about 24" away and push/pull a Flyrant or Tyrant out and then blast it with your 6 or 9 Oblits and whatever troops you've got lying around. And the whole Nid army isn't going to be within the 18" bubble, if there's a fex on a flank it'll work there to get the Prince into CC. If your whole army is advancing in this bubble, you're not in cover and you're going to get shot by 9 Oblits and then Troops who will likely either have an AP1 Bolt of Change or an AP3 Blaster Master, or a freakin Lascannon.

You also don't have to combo Princes with it, you can have the prince be further away and pull a unti towards some raptors with a Fist.

Regardless I'm sure they will do exactly what Princes do now, use terrain to hide themselves as they fly over to get a charge off. If they ever get exposed, they were likely going to have be exposed to some fire at some point anyway.

The Lash has a metric ton of uses in a game because unit position is huge, pushing units around and into/out of ranges of guns or assault is a huge ability that will be capitalized on.

It is not unbeatable, but it is broken enough to be mandatory for a lot of armies (kind of like DakkaFex's).

Once again Slaanesh gets the borken psychic power and Tzeencth and Nurgle get crap. Lash of submission may very well dictate the metagame for the next several years. Why am I not surprised.

In any case, it is a cool power that could have been more balanced (maybe a scatterdice with only a hit allowing the chaos player to determine the direction, something). Reminds me of alot of the stuff in warmachine, isntead of yet another 'kill stuff' power.

GW is officially in a tailspin.

They don't just need to fire Gav and Jervis, they need to kill them so as to prevent the possibility of losing their minds at a later date and re-hiring them.

Seriously, how can they be so damn bad at their job?

Slash prince rolls off the tongue very nicely.

I vote slash prince.

Actually every single Hive Tyrant I've ever seen has always had it. Quad devourers and implant attacks is the standard line-up for the winged Tyrant, and the walking one either has quad devourers and implants or dual devourers & venom cannon & implants.

Powerful yes but I still can't see why it's broken. The exact same Slaanesh spell exists in Warhammer Fantasy too only there unit movement and facing is even more crucial. In both systems the spell can be failed, resisted (immune) and dispeled. Try to put this psychic power into perspective: Chaos was just nerfed in every single way imaginable and the only positive development to be found in the army book so far has been this spell.

Voodoo Boyz: Your metagame is borderline ridiculous already so please take a deep breath and calm down. What you're saying is "First you hide your Princes then you move them so they can see the hidden enemy Hive Tyrant then you cast the spell twice on it and then you blast it with 9 Obliterators muhahaha!". I can't see how any reasonable Zilla player would ever let you get away with something like that, not to mention you're actually boasting about maneouvring with 1050 odd points to kill a 170 point model. What you conveniently forget is that even in the highly unlikely scenario that you ever pull something like this off, you're just trading units with the Tyranid player with a 1:1 ratio or worse.

That's a bad call mate.

Marines got bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, frags, and kraks. So did cult troops. Cult troops got better for their points.

Chaos did not get nerfed, iron warriors got nerfed.

Yes but while every fantasy army has some sort of anti-magic ability, many 40k armies are at the mercy of this spell. Yes there's ways to avoid the first turn disatser without a hood et al, but then again you've just dictated exactly how your opponent can deploy without getting hosed and that in and of itself is worth the 10 or so points this power costs. And you've probably just deplayed the inevitable unless you can move as fast or faster then the princes.

Plus I'm not even saying that this thing is going to break 40k but compared to the other powers it is far and away better (just like siren was compared to the BS minor powers of the other gods). Assuming this is the "only positive deveopment", then that is brokeness in my book and a missed opportunity. Not that I agree that the chaos is completey nerfed though. I recall many, even you, thought nids were nerfed hard when rumors first surfaced and yet they are now considered top tier. I think its too early to tell what kind of shape chaos as a whole will be come a year from now but we can be sure this power will figure in that outcome.