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Just to correct something: Hive Tyrants are I6 (you may have to buy it, but you'd be stupid not to). They'll be fighting daemon princes simultaneously. And the prince has no implant attack so expect him to die as a result (but he's cheaper than a Tyrant, so hey).

Not claiming Nidzilla is going to put up much of a fight against 9 oblits and 2 lash princes though. Ouch.

When a Nidzilla list runs out of points, the I upgrade and Imprlant attack are, almost iinvariably, the first things cut.

Man that's the last thing I'd cut. I'd cut stealers or gaunts first.

Never seen a Zilla list that runs out of points though. It's like perfectly optimized to work at 1500 and 1850.

Agreed. That's also my experience with the Nids.

You've seen my 1500 point list, and there's nothing to cut except Raveners. Of course I6 and some other upgrades might be worth more than one Ravener, but all I'm saying is that it's not such a rare occurance to see a Hive Tyrant with I5.

thats requires doing over 40 wounds at 1500 points just for the warriors......good luck with that, and thanks for moving them closer.

 

man my wifes nids are CC monsters

the initiative bonus is a must as is bio plasma to deal with skimmers and higher I units

i would never dream of taking either away.

 

 

Maybe not the most OT place to ask, but what's THE build for a Flyrant? I'm starting to get the impression there's more variation out there than not.

There's two flyrants. CC monster, and twin devourers with implant attack. Not hard to figure out either one really.

How can you have two flyrants when they are limited to 0-1?

He means there's two main builds. One is the scything talon, +I, maybe implant attack CC guy. The other is the devourer, stay at range, or only CC things that can't handle Tyrants in close combat guy. They both have their pluses.

I also don't run implant attack or +I on my devourer flyrant. He's not really meant for fighting things in close combat that he'd need those upgrades against. Plus I need the points for more stealers.

I really think NidZilla needs a few broods of genestealers to keep off the assault marines, harlequins, khorne daemons etc.

Doesn't need genestealers. You can have almost 4 fearless termagaunts for every 1 Ld10 genestealer you get. Therion convinced me on that and he has been 100% dead on. I win games that I used to lose because people could take 500vps out of my genestealers which they now can't have from my 200pts of termagaunts.

Speaking of which if you think genestealers are going to keep assault dudes off better than 4 times their number in fearless termagaunts you have got another thing coming

Run the numbers on what happens to Harlequins against termagaunts vs. harlequins against Genestealers.

Lash is more dangerous when taken byu sorcerors, as they are cheaper and can hide it units.

Lash works against nids not by moving them forwards or back per se, but by manoeuvering units tightly under flame templates or Vindies.

I agree on termagants, but I still prefer a mix of troops bugs. Hormagaunts for the quick tie up, termagants for the horde and armoured genestealers for the kill.

Lash is a huge danger to nids but I think for a different reason. being able to maneuver the big bugs into the right spots for you to totally screw them.

The nidzilla army depends on very precise positioning. your bugs need to be close enough to support each other, but not so close that they can be consolidated into by assault troops.

If you can lash the carnifexes right up next to each other, charge one and wipe it out and consolidate into another all in the same turn you're screwing with the gameplan seriously.

If you can double lash one side of the Carnie formation and isolate it from its helpers, you may be able to shoot it down without it counter-shooting your daemon prince with Dakkafexes.

Lash list + 9 oblits is going to suck (soccer) balls for Nidzilla.

It does for a few games, while you paint up the huge number of Gaunts required.

I'm painting a list right now with 6 Fexes, Flyrant and 20 Stealers. Eventually I'll replace one Fex with 3x Zoanthropes, and then start replacing Stealers with Gaunts. In the end it'll give me 60 Gaunts in place of the 20 Stealers. I think that's a much stronger list.

I knew from the start I'd rather have the 60 Gaunt list, but I figured I'd like to play a bit with it just in case I dont enjoy it enough to paint 60 Gaunts.

Posted By Longshot on 08/20/2007 2:48 PM
Doesn't need genestealers. You can have almost 4 fearless termagaunts for every 1 Ld10 genestealer you get. Therion convinced me on that and he has been 100% dead on. I win games that I used to lose because people could take 500vps out of my genestealers which they now can't have from my 200pts of termagaunts.

Speaking of which if you think genestealers are going to keep assault dudes off better than 4 times their number in fearless termagaunts you have got another thing coming

Run the numbers on what happens to Harlequins against termagaunts vs. harlequins against Genestealers.

I have, and I know stealers aren't a good match up against harleys, BUT harleys are an elite choice and the eldar will have a max of 3. Even if you did a 1 for 1 swap then he'll run out of harleys about the same time you run out of stealers, and then he's screwed. If you let them get the charge your stealers are dead, but that's easily enough avoided with the amount of devourers in a NidZilla list. VOT is little use against 18" range shooting. If they barrel up in a falcon then they can't assault that turn, and the falcon is now in range of at least 18 str6 devourer shots, and assorted venom cannons/stranglers. Even if you don't blow it up, you can make sure they can only engage a single MC, or stealer squad next turn, and then harlequins melt to devourer fire if in the open.

By the way, you don't even get 3 termagaunts for 1 stealer. I don't get EC, the wall of MCs is the armour save

The reasons I prefere stealers to gaunts are two-fold:

1) Gaunts need synapse. I'm NidZilla so synapse is no concern to my current list. Everything either ignores it (stealers) or is LD 10. I can lose it and barely notice. Gaunts are not like that. Gaunts need constant synapse sheparding and mean that my opponent knocks out my assault screen by killing my 2 tyrants and synapse zoan. So he now can ignore the assault screen, shoot up the MCs, and by doing so disable BOTH the assault screen and seriously weaken the MCs. With stealers, he only damages one or the other, and whichever he doesn't shoot at is not negatively affected.

2) Stealers can kill anything. Gaunts can tie anything up. There's a big difference. If you throw gaunts against assault  terminators, the gaunts will slowly be beaten down and the terminators will eventually be free. You can't even dakka the terminators while they're in that combat - so for the rest of the match they are an issue and your termagaunts are tied up.
Stealers are very likely to clear their killzone on the charge, and then wipe them out on the enemies turn due to pile in. Termies are gone, stealers are once again useful.

I've only 408 vp of stealers in a 1700 point list, 24 plain steales with flesh-hooks (which i'm not sure i should have tbh, but they're there to ensure mutual destruction against anything like harlequins in cover should I for some reason not be able to just dakka them). It's very rare I'll lose all 3 squads, and if I do then it usually means my MCs have been totally ignored, which is not a safe thing to do.

I don't see how your 200 points of termagaunts is going to hold off an assault marine list. 24 stealers will not only hold them off, they'll kill them if the marines are silly enough to charge. So the marines have to stand back and try to shoot the stealers out of the way before they can assault, which means the marines have to weather a lot of extra turns of devourers, or venom cannons shooting their land-raiders, crusaders, etc. At the Irish GT last weekend 24 stealers were enough to stop Death Company and a fully assaulty blood angels list from ever being able to attack me. Instead he had to stay at range and try and clear out the stealers. Which obviously doesn't work well when you're getting near to devourer range. Had he gone forward with his deathcompany, 3 jump pack assault squads, multi-melta bikes etc, then the stealers would have broken them - because of I6 and rending. With termagaunts he could have assaulted, he'd have lost few marines, and he'd have been safe from my shooting the turn after he charged. Some of his numerous assault squads would have been out of combat the next turn, and into my MCs...

If stealers are spread out in conga lines with half of each squad behind MCs, and half in front, then it takes a lot of turns of shooting to wipe them out as LOS means that no squad may be wiped out in any one turn. By the time an assaulty list can do it, they'll have been shot up, or they'll be foot-slogging due to no transports. If they drop-pod in, then they just get shot up, then stealered...

I'm not convinced by termagaunts over stealers in NidZilla at all.

++ quozl

Stealers are the anvil to the MC hammer.

My list looks like:
1 shooty tyrant
3 dakkafex
3 gunfex
36 armored stealers

I'd have to say that the stealers are much more effective than the MCs shooting, except maybe against vehicles. I cant even imagine running this list with termagants.

1- Harlequins are Init 7 on the charge. They'll kill a squad of stealers, consolidate into a big bug, kill it and then die to countercharge. You haven't played against a good harlie list yet I'd guess.

2- the way I hold off an assault marine list is by throwing gaunts at them and backing up, while continuing to shoot them...and then beating them in assault with raveners/gaunts/Flyrant.

3 - Why take genestealers over raveners? That's right. No reason.



Neither could I. But I tried it and found it to be vastly superior. You just don't need any vulnerable, expensive troops in a nidzilla army.

Posted By Longshot on 08/21/2007 9:09 AM
1- Harlequins are Init 7 on the charge. They'll kill a squad of stealers, consolidate into a big bug, kill it and then die to countercharge. You haven't played against a good harlie list yet I'd guess.

2- the way I hold off an assault marine list is by throwing gaunts at them and backing up, while continuing to shoot them...and then beating them in assault with raveners/gaunts/Flyrant.

3 - Why take genestealers over raveners? That's right. No reason.

I'd have to say that the stealers are much more effective than the MCs shooting, except maybe against vehicles. I cant even imagine running this list with termagants.

Neither could I. But I tried it and found it to be vastly superior. You just don't need any vulnerable, expensive troops in a nidzilla army.

1: That's why I said 'If you let them get the charge your stealers are dead, but that's easily enough avoided with the amount of devourers in a NidZilla list.'.
My club-mate came 5th in the Irish GT this weekend, only losing to the winner, and I play his eldar regularly. Another good player in our club also plays mech eldar. I know harlequins very well...

2: That's fine, but I don't believe it's as good. With the same points worth of stealers you'll kill them, as opposed to tie them up while you back-peddle. The assault marines also won't be as safe in CC with stealers as they are with termagaunts.

3: Because, and this is the big one, stealers are I6, raveners are I5. Eldar are I5, furious charging marines are I5, some marine HQs are I5. I want my stealers to strike first, clear their killzone and not take ANY hits back. They do this regularly, even against assault marines. Raveners would get hit a lot, and raveners are no less fragile than stealers. Neither of them can take hits, but stealers can stop you hitting back much better than raveners can. Oh, and also, harlequins again, charge harlequins with 120 points of stealers and you're both dead - charge them with 120 points of raveners and it's just you thats dead.

So for 120 points you either get 3 raveners or 7 stealers. I love raveners and I take loan raveners as fast moving scoring units with rending and extra charge. Equivalent points of stealers will out-perform them in CC, which is why, with NidZilla I'd always make sure I have enough stealers before adding nice extras like raveners.

With NidZilla your stealers aren't moving forward, they're either hiding behind your MCs as those advance or ringing them to protect you from assault. Both jobs they do better than equivalent points of raveners imo. They may be expensive compared to termagaunts but they're are an order of magnitude more effective at protecting NidZilla from what really messes NidZilla - decent enemy assault troops.

If your opponent is assaulty, then the stealers are a ring and your opponent will have to spend a lot of time shooting them, because he won't be well equiped for it.
If your opponent is shooty, then the stealers hide behind the LOS blocking MCs until the MCs have advanced suitably closely.

Like I said, it's very seldom I lose my expensive stealers, and if I do it's because they're had to totally ignore the MCs and the MCs then murder them.

You also haven't answered my point about termagaunts reliance on synapse? By killing the Synapse carrying MCs/Zoans, you cripple both the MCs and your assault shield. That doesn't happen with stealers. I have tried using gaunts instead but I don't like being synapse dependant, because you then have to spend points on getting enough synapse to ensure it can't be taken out, when with MCs /stealers it's easy enough to get to a state where it really doesn't matter if you lose your synapse.

I have two tyrants and a zoey with synapse, and my Gaunts always have a Flyrant supporting them.

Further, if the walking Tyrant with 3 guard is dead, I've probably already lost.

With my ~200pts (or fewer) of gaunts, I rarely care if they fail a synapse check and have to run toward a Tyrant. In some situations it's advantageous, even.

I got to say I can't see the point of Genestealers either. They are simply way, way too expensive for what they can do. In 1500 points they don't fit the list at all, and in 1750/1850 I'd just take a couple more Spinegaunt units than before and a lot more Raveners.

I'm not so sold as Longshot is that the Lash army with 9 Oblits is going to crush Nidzilla. Chaos has an advantage in escalation but in other missions I'd say the Nids are a clear favorite to win. If the Chaos player isn't keeping a large contingent of Raptors near the Obliterator firebase you can just tie up all the shooty lascannon crap with Gaunts while your wave of monsters is closing in. All of the sudden the Chaos army is suffering from -5 leadership and the game won't last long from there on.

The lack of a whole army of Fearless units hurts against the Choir!

9 oblits is one dead carnifex a turn from 48" even in cover (3.66 or something). A bunch of guys with bolters can put an end to gaunts/stealers.

Two lashes makes it nearly impossible to hide your gaunts/stealers/raveners from bolters, as well.

And that's only around 1000pts. There's still 850 more to go of raptors, troops, or terminators.

Some good luck at instakilling could change the game, but that's unreliable.

The Psychic choir affects pyschic abilities. I'm not sure but if the lash requires a psychic check then once your at 18" he'll never use it again.

9 Oblits will never get to shoot at a carnifex from 48" away. Best they could do is around 36" if they deployed on the board edge. For the points if he's taking 2 lash's, and 9 oblits there won't be enough bolters on the table to stop a wet paper sack.
So the dubious decision do you shoot at the carnifex's, or at the hordes coming at you. Not only that Oblit's aren't as tough as they were. Given the standard table if you put them where they can see to fire at anything they will be shot at starting turn 1, or you put them back or in a corner somewhere and they can only shoot at maybe 1/4 of the army.

The game isn't won on paper strange things happen on the table when you add in terrain, etc.

That's true, terrain does play a role. But I wouldn't ignore the 9 lascannon firepower.

It really wouldn't be that hard to kill the Psychic Choir either - 2 wound guys who can be lashed.

I'm not going to stick to my guns and say it'd be an easy fight, but it'd be pretty difficult.

against a 2 lash and 9 obliterator list... you need a lot of gaunts.. a lot of psychic scream.. and a lot of Zilla's... As a tyranid player you have to be sure that when your Zilla's get shot.. your Genestealers/gaunts can do the rest... and the other way around...

Obliterators dont have the heavy bolter anymore but instead the have to use a Plasma Cannon for gaunts.. Its less effective when you deploy your gaunts 2 inch from each other...

With 3 psychic scream zoantropes and 2 psychic scream hivetyrants.. its going to be harder for a Daemon Prince with lash to make his psychic test...

I would also get a few lictors to assault a daemon Prince or a obliterator unit.. but you need at least two for the job.. the get killed but if the can hold of a round of shooting/lashing..your gaunts can take over the job...

Tyranids need a lot of units and cheap!!! Still going to be a hard....

I think I'll continue running my Dark Eldar Raider mounted force. He can't target my Raider/Wych Squads with Lash and I'll just have to keep my Dark Lance sniper squads more than 24" away (DL's have 36" range).

Ozymandias, King of Kings