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Ofc you never said anything like that when proven wrong.. you just used it as an example for fun to show how bad they are?

 But sure, show me what squad you will run and what it will do?

Chaos will be one of the top tiers but severly beaten by mech eldar, unless they change lash.

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/29/2007 5:16 AM

Ofc you never said anything like that when proven wrong.. you just used it as an example for fun to show how bad they are?

 But sure, show me what squad you will run and what it will do?

Chaos will be one of the top tiers but severly beaten by mech eldar, unless they change lash.

I've already shown you a squad (a cruddy one) and its comparable to the kults, every one of them.  I could continue with more examples but you seem to be rather closed minded about the whole thing.  I've already shown that CSM can be more versatile and close to the same power level for the points as Kults.  You've presented no evidence on how useless CSM are, you've just dismissed them.

....and what does lash have to do with Mech Eldar?  It doesnt effect vehicles.

Deadshane,

Show us squads that you want to take. We will then decide if they are good, or if you're better with spending the points in cult troops, or possibly elites, heavy support, or fast attack. Then you will accept that this is our opinion.

And clearly the guy was saying that Chaos will be beaten by Mech Eldar because lash doesn't effect vehicles (not that I agree with that, though, I guess I do to some extent).

Posted By onlainari on 08/29/2007 6:51 AM
Deadshane,

Show us squads that you want to take. We will then decide if they are good, or if you're better with spending the points in cult troops, or possibly elites, heavy support, or fast attack. Then you will accept that this is our opinion.

And clearly the guy was saying that Chaos will be beaten by Mech Eldar because lash doesn't effect vehicles (not that I agree with that, though, I guess I do to some extent).

the only squad I think I've solidified in a possible list is an 8 man Havoc squad with 4 heavy bolters, mark of undivided, and a powerweapon sergeant....coming in at 220 pts.  10 more points could give them a mark of slaanesh instead having them strike potential chargers at initiative 5, this might be bordering on making them a bit too expensive though....not sure if they need that much more hth potential.  Actually, for a SHOOTY squad, the havocs would have an unusual amount of HtH ability even WITHOUT the Vet, dispost of him and you can lower the squad to a trim 190 or 200 depending on your mark.  The thing that impresses me is that normally squads like this are charged and wiped out easily, this one can at least fight back in close combat, they arent the normal shooty unit that gets chumped in hth.  Its EXACTLY the sort of unit that would be in a shooty 'top tier' list.

....and gee, what ISNT beaten by Mech Eldar?  Putting it that way is even funnier actually. You know, I bet even a Big Bugs list might be able to beat a Chaos list....duh!

Mech eldar will beat chaos over the hills and back because the most powerful thing in the codex wont work against them. (dunno how you could read it as anything else). The only small chance I have against them is if i get lucky with the terminators and down them.

The nidz are hard sometimes but definenlty doable with chaos.

Also, didnt I say in my frist posts(see page 1)  that the ones benefiting most from this was Havocs but I still find obliterators superior (and thats mostly cause they can move and fire, rapidfire twinlinked plasma within 12 and such)? Its the basic CSM that really arent worth it.

Such a reply only proves our point Deadshane, it only proves our point.

Posted By onlainari on 08/29/2007 5:21 PM
Such a reply only proves our point Deadshane, it only proves our point.

Whatever, you guys just want to continue arguing without proving your point.  Others in this thread see the positive aspects of CSM's and thats good enough for me.  I dont need to prove anything to anyone, I know that I'm correct in thinking that basic CSM's are a viable choice in a less than optimal codex.  I'm not proving your point, I'm conceding the arguement to both of your hard-headedness.

An interesting thread. I fail to see the use of CSM because a shooty squad gets too expensive, and generally mounting up in Rhinos in this edition is stupid pure and simple. This however of course also limits the use of DG and World Eaters to zero, and TS and EC to sitting back and being at least borderline too expensive for what they can do. They dish out as much firepower as their points cost suggests, but give up VPs too easy. So, everyone ends up taking the minimum troop choices (either TS or EC) and maximum HQ and HS. The rest of the points (if any) are dropped into Raptors, who unlike the troop choices aren't at all expensive for what they can do.

Basically, everyone will play (roughly, I haven't done any points calculations) 2x DP, 2x TS/EC, 3x3 Oblits, 1x Raps. When points limit goes up you just add more Raptors and/or more TS/EC. Why the above list you say? Because these units happen to be the only worthwhile units in the whole codex, meaning there's just about enough material to build a competitive force. The downside is that everyone will play the same list. No matter, competitive Eldar and Tyranid players already suffer from the same problem, so you're just joining the club.

Posted By Therion on 08/29/2007 8:20 PM
An interesting thread. I fail to see the use of CSM because a shooty squad gets too expensive, and generally mounting up in Rhinos in this edition is stupid pure and simple. This however of course also limits the use of DG and World Eaters to zero, and TS and EC to sitting back and being at least borderline too expensive for what they can do. They dish out as much firepower as their points cost suggests, but give up VPs too easy. So, everyone ends up taking the minimum troop choices (either TS or EC) and maximum HQ and HS. The rest of the points (if any) are dropped into Raptors, who unlike the troop choices aren't at all expensive for what they can do.

Basically, everyone will play (roughly, I haven't done any points calculations) 2x DP, 2x TS/EC, 3x3 Oblits, 1x Raps. When points limit goes up you just add more Raptors and/or more TS/EC. Why the above list you say? Because these units happen to be the only worthwhile units in the whole codex, meaning there's just about enough material to build a competitive force. The downside is that everyone will play the same list. No matter, competitive Eldar and Tyranid players already suffer from the same problem, so you're just joining the club.

Thanx Therion, I think you helped me out here.  Like I said, CSM should be a decent choice in a less than optimal CODEX (as a whole)....

All I was trying to say is that CSM are not nearly the easy dismissal that most chaos players are considering with this army book.  Troop choices have to come from somewhere and why not spend less points on them, or if you DO decide to spend precious resources, why not have them be able to perform in multiple theatres?  I agree that lots of chaos armies out there will wind up having two flying princes, a greater daemon, lots of oblits, and some daemon possessed vindies....bottom line is that this doesnt really leave room for the lacklustre troop choices that are availiable to Chaos players.  A personal note of mine...I happen to like the chaos marines for their versatility...so I plug their ability to cover all bases....I might try doing a Black legion list.  I think a competetive list may be possible...as competetive as chaos can be in the current game anyway. (I also have a penchant for utilising base troops in an army list...if for their cheapness if no other reason....I like lots of heads)

The new troop choices are going to be bought at a premium, CSM and Kult alike.  I really beleive that puts them at an immediate disadvantage to the current power lists out there (big bugs and eldar...not just mech eldar) so claiming that Kult armies are going to be 'Top Tier' in the first place is a pretty grand boast.  I havent seen many "top Tier" lists that number their army in the 20-30's as far as how many troopers.  Thats what we're talking about in a Chaos list at 1750 pts....and every loss counts...you feel them die as the game goes on.

Kallbrand...Onlainari...Keep on beleiving you can build "Top Tier" lists out of any of the Chaos Kults in the new codex...you're delusional.  Generalship is the only way you'll ever dominate with this codex.  If we ever play I'll be happy to clobber you with Eldar or a nice Mech sisters list which are both easily stronger than anything the chaos 'dex can spit out.  If you're going to challenge yourself with a Codex that is 'Maybe?' decent in some respects and has interesting possibilities, be my guest with the Chaos codex.  If you DO create somehow a winning Tournement list with cults however, know that anyone can easily copy your army with a basic CSM version of your list and be just as successful, possibly more, they're very comparable....its obvious.

Again, great point Therion, we basically arguing here which pile of poop stinks the most/least, telling me that I was right in not trying to continue the arguement.  This then will be pretty much all I have to say on the subject, I'm satisfied that there is no discernable true advantage between choosing cult/basic marines.  I personally am drawn to the basic marines however assuming I build a list, happily, since I see no real difference.

Haha, you are a funny guy Shane. Therion comes in and tells you that your basic CSM are bad and you thank him and think that proved your point? You wont even be using the basic CSM yourself and you still try to act smart and fooling someone else they are a good choice.

The kult guys will only fill up your 2 trooop choices, noone ever said anything else. You wont make a top tier army based on the kultmarines but they will be the troops, not the CSM that you think are so great. Neither will most people use the havocs even tho they are a little more viable but still beaten by obliterators. The only thing I thing Therion missed is the terminators whom people will use. Again, the kults will only fill up 2 troop slots(not be the base in the army) but it will be kult and not basic guys even there.

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/30/2007 3:18 AM
Haha, you are a funny guy Shane. Therion comes in and tells you that your basic CSM are bad and you thank him and think that proved your point? You wont even be using the basic CSM yourself and you still try to act smart and fooling someone else they are a good choice.

The kult guys will only fill up your 2 trooop choices, noone ever said anything else. You wont make a top tier army based on the kultmarines but they will be the troops, not the CSM that you think are so great. Neither will most people use the havocs even tho they are a little more viable but still beaten by obliterators. The only thing I thing Therion missed is the terminators whom people will use. Again, the kults will only fill up 2 troop slots(not be the base in the army) but it will be kult and not basic guys even there.

When did I ever say that CSM's were great other than the very first post of this thread?  Just about every other post I've made has simply said that they're just as viable (if not a little better in my opinion) than Kults, due to the versatility and lack of marines in marine armies these days.  Thats my point, nothing more.  When Therion mentions that both types of units are sub-par compared to other choices in the codex it DOES help along my arguement.  Why would you spend MORE points on units that arent very good in the first place?  75 pt  base units seem like a rather viable choice in this codex assuming that you'll be running nothing but the 'good' units.  I myself will probably do more with the CSM troop choice assuming that I build an army, but thats just me...I like using lots of basic troopers.

I just now notice that he makes mention of the only troops choices we'll be seeing are 2 (im assuming) min sized  EC or TS.  For the points you spend on those two units, I doubt that you wouldnt be able to make up a basic marine troop choice that would be as effective. (and/or cheaper)  In effect, you'll still have the same armies out there. 

Example-

5 EC with sonic blaster-125 pts (bout as cheap as you get and still be sort of useful)

5 TS with Bolt of Change- 140 pts (everyone seems to love bolt of change)

5 CSM with rhino and melta- 120 pts

I would argue that the CSM's are at least as useful as the other two choices that he says are the only viable ones, they're cheaper, can pop tanks, give 6 bolter shots within 12" from within the tank, offer mobile cover, and potential tank shocks.  All the other units do is stand and shoot.  Therefore, I beleive his statement DID help forward my arguement.  My version of the min troop choice for Therion's "common Chaos list" can fit right in there.  Quite easily in fact, adding more versatility at a cheaper cost. 

 

Posted By Therion on 08/29/2007 8:20 PM
An interesting thread. I fail to see the use of CSM because a shooty squad gets too expensive, and generally mounting up in Rhinos in this edition is stupid pure and simple. This however of course also limits the use of DG and World Eaters to zero, and TS and EC to sitting back and being at least borderline too expensive for what they can do. They dish out as much firepower as their points cost suggests, but give up VPs too easy. So, everyone ends up taking the minimum troop choices (either TS or EC) and maximum HQ and HS. The rest of the points (if any) are dropped into Raptors, who unlike the troop choices aren't at all expensive for what they can do.

Basically, everyone will play (roughly, I haven't done any points calculations) 2x DP, 2x TS/EC, 3x3 Oblits, 1x Raps. When points limit goes up you just add more Raptors and/or more TS/EC. Why the above list you say? Because these units happen to be the only worthwhile units in the whole codex, meaning there's just about enough material to build a competitive force. The downside is that everyone will play the same list. No matter, competitive Eldar and Tyranid players already suffer from the same problem, so you're just joining the club.

I'm curious however, Therion.  Why is it you like the Raptors so much?  Seems to me in the list you forwarded above that they would be shot to peices...there isnt much to block line of sight during their advance.  (course I guess you could run them behind the daemon princes...or use them to lash something closer for a turn one charge....I guess I just answered my own question. 

I didn't miss them. I too have noticed the fact they only cost 30 points now, but how could you possibly use them competitively in a 1500 points list? If I remember correctly the combi-weapons are still one use only items and the reaper autocannon still sucks, meaning that although the squad is quite resilient for the cost, they will find it hard to have a meaningful impact on the game because of their lack of raw offensive power.


Those small Rhino squads seem like something one could experiment with. If the Rhino was a scoring unit I would probably be inclined to agree that those squads are more efficient for the minimum sized troop choices. Like I said, all of the troop choices seem a bit expensive to me.


Because Raptors are dirt cheap now (like Assault Marines), have all the necessary weapon upgrades available to them, and can be made more expensive if necessary by adding a mark of khorne/tzeentch etc. Basically if you want you can have your 'World Eaters' on jump packs which makes them much more likely to ever see combat on their terms.

Most of all I like them because they add mobility to an otherwise extremely slow army, and because you need a solid counter-assault force to have a good chance of defeating Nids and Eldar. Both of those armies will be assaulting you sooner or later, and Raptors are perfect for wiping out massive Gaunt squads in one phase or using their champion to kill shooty Carnifexes. In any case they will protect your Obliterators from an enemy assault for atleast a turn or two and that can be decisive. Against Eldar they can be crucial in any massive close combat, and they can attempt to block Falcon rear hatches to prevent Harlequins from disembarking in the beginning of the Eldar turn. With two Lash Princes going around you can make the Raptors' job a lot easier no matter what you want to do with them. When I play CSM or Space Marines and have Assault Marines in my army and expect the enemy to close in with me, I deploy them behind my gunlines, often even hugging the table edge. From there they can react to all kinds of threats.

Naturally I'm not talking about basing a force entirely around Raptors, but using them as the oil that makes the slow & purposeful shooty element of the army work. If you have a close combat element of two Daemon Princes and one or two squads of Raptors, and a slow and shooty element of masses of Obliterators and cult troops, who knows the army might even be fun to play.

Posted By Therion on 08/30/2007 9:06 AM
Because Raptors are dirt cheap now (like Assault Marines), have all the necessary weapon upgrades available to them, and can be made more expensive if necessary by adding a mark of khorne/tzeentch etc. Basically if you want you can have your 'World Eaters' on jump packs which makes them much more likely to ever see combat on their terms.

Most of all I like them because they add mobility to an otherwise extremely slow army, and because you need a solid counter-assault force to have a good chance of defeating Nids and Eldar. Both of those armies will be assaulting you sooner or later, and Raptors are perfect for wiping out massive Gaunt squads in one phase or using their champion to kill shooty Carnifexes. In any case they will protect your Obliterators from an enemy assault for atleast a turn or two and that can be decisive. Against Eldar they can be crucial in any massive close combat, and they can attempt to block Falcon rear hatches to prevent Harlequins from disembarking in the beginning of the Eldar turn. With two Lash Princes going around you can make the Raptors' job a lot easier no matter what you want to do with them. When I play CSM or Space Marines and have Assault Marines in my army and expect the enemy to close in with me, I deploy them behind my gunlines, often even hugging the table edge. From there they can react to all kinds of threats.

Naturally I'm not talking about basing a force entirely around Raptors, but using them as the oil that makes the slow & purposeful shooty element of the army work. If you have a close combat element of two Daemon Princes and one or two squads of Raptors, and a slow and shooty element of masses of Obliterators and cult troops, who knows the army might even be fun to play.

Thats really interesting, it never really dawned on me about the raptors.  Dont you think a better mark for them would be Slaanesh however, maybe utilising a lightning claw sergeant?  Seems to me in a smallish unit of 5 that would help keep casualties down to a minimum.  I'm thinking a unit of 5 like that with a couple of flamers should be real nice, specially after you bunch up enemy units with the 'Lash.

I agree with both Therion and Deadshane. A lot of people are complaining about the CSM codex, but in reality you can make some pretty flexible lists with units that previously were overpriced. The Chaos codex is more of a combined arms army now that it used to be. I for one welcome the return of raptors and they now have better synergy with other elements of the the book. A khornate army is looking more and more appealing as days go by. Unfortunately, I am still finishing up my IG redux and still have my Black Templar hoard army to contend with.

Capt K

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 08/30/2007 9:57 AM
I agree with both Therion and Deadshane. A lot of people are complaining about the CSM codex, but in reality you can make some pretty flexible lists with units that previously were overpriced. The Chaos codex is more of a combined arms army now that it used to be. I for one welcome the return of raptors and they now have better synergy with other elements of the the book. A khornate army is looking more and more appealing as days go by. Unfortunately, I am still finishing up my IG redux and still have my Black Templar hoard army to contend with.

Capt K

Khorne armies are definatly appealing.  I for one have experimented over the past couple of years with 13th company Wulfen...berserkers are now basically the same on the charge, a hard unit to say the least not really even needing power weapons at all assuming the unit numbers 10 or more.  Its just a shame that there is no extra movement of any sort.  Rhino rush seems to be the only way to go with these guys...rather disappointing.  It is nice not to be led around by land speeders though I'm sure.

Terminators could possibly be used quite well as 4 with combiweapons only costs about 140 points and can deepstrike in(or start at the table if needed badly). Either at an icon where needed or chanced near a unit they can rapidfire at within 12".

The humble CSM was the topic here tho, but we seem to have dissmissed them now right? Tbh they were ever only used as a 6man-2weapon squad before and having to come 10 for that makes it to expensive now.

Personally I dont think the new codex gives very much less power, just a bit. But a lot of the flexibility in the old list is gone untill demons comes out at least.