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he's right...that's totally what my list does, minus the incubi and lord, they just rape and pillage wherever they go, no matter what enemy (with the exception of nid big creatures)

take incubi over wyches...the best a wych unit can do is hold a bunch of thing up for a couple turns and maybe beat it in combat, where every combat phase the incubi are in close combat you have a guarantee on the enemy losing a unit. believe me the only thing every to stand up to a charge from 8 of them and a lord was a hormogaunt brood of 32, they only had 10 left though so yea

Did you just compare Incubi units to Wych units on a one-to-one basis? Do you see any problem with that?

Here's a suggestion: try Incubi against Harlequins. See if you're still down on Wyches then.

Tegeus-Cromis speaks truth. Wyches > Incubi just about everytime. The speed is what really does it. Incubi suffer from a few problem in what would otherwise be a great unit. 1) Expensive. Having a high cost unit in this army is generally a mistake because it translates into a bigger target than something else. One of the ways that DE gain survivability is by spamming the board with so many low cost, deadly units that the enemy can kill 1-2 (or 3-4) and it doesn't cripple the assault or shooting base. 2) Slow. Yeah they can have a raider but they ain't fleet of footing and a raider is about as reliable as a Chinese toy manufacturer. 3) Still Fragile. We're talking about a t3 model here. Sure they have a 3+ save but they are still going to go down to bolter fire. 4) they are slowing down the DUDE. An archon is probably one of the single greatest Close Combat monsters in the entire game. He can kill anything/anywhere/anytime and generally the other guy won't even hit back. He has a rediculously large charge range (something like 24" can't remember exactly) and having a bunch of slow Incubi with him only slows him down.

The webway army is where it is at for DE. It protects your vulnerable assault units and pretty much guarantees that those raiders will be able to deliver their cargo. That is the single biggest advantage over the old Eldar webway portal. It can hold vehicles. Stuff all your raiders and ravagers in there and let them out where you want them. Here's a list that I would use for about 1750 points. I don't have the codex with me so forgive me if the numbers are a little off.

HQ
Archon- jetbike, combat drugs, tormentor helm, shadow field, punisher,animus vitae, haywire grenades, plasma grenades ~176
Haemonculli- wwp, scissorhand 80
Haemonculli- wwp, scissorhand 80

ELITE
3x8 Wyches- wych weapons, plasma grenades, combat drugs, sybarite w/agonizer 3x140
3xRaider- 3x50

Warp Beast Pack- 75

TROOPS
5x10 Warriors- 2 dark lances 5x100

HEAVY SUPPORT
2x Ravagers- 3 disintigrators each 2x120

That leaves you a few points to play around with and give you lots of firepower. Anything on a bike or a skimmer starts the game in the webway. The warp beast guard against early charges and the warriors squads take down vehicles and terminators. DE, when played properly can be a challenge for any army to handle. SAFH marines get eaten in CC, DE simply murder 'nilla zids, and even give Mechdar a run for their money. A hard army to play, but when done correctly really brutal.

i'm not talking about comparing them in fight against one another, sure the wyches win. but charge a marine unit with 10 wyches, and then do the same with 10 incubi. i do believe if my math suits me well that the incubi kill all of the marines losing none and the wyches maybe kill 5 with some lucky rolls, and probably lose 3 or so in return.

it's dumb to compare two units by saying how they preform against each other. compare them on how they preform against other more common units to face such as T4, 3+ armor units. in other words necrons and marines, GK, etc. now do necrons stand back up when killed from power weapons?...i can't remember. oh that's right they don't but they do when killed by wyches.

point is incubi kill the most common units you'll face in 40k hands down, where wyches act as a buffer for better things to come. so i say use both in an army, that way you've got lots of stuff that's nasty in combat. incubi for marines and such, and wyches for the lightly armored crap.

anyway i've been playing d.eldar for 7 years now, and i almost never lose a game. incubi always prove themselves worthwhile, ask anyone whose ever played against d.eldar. you'll se what i'm talking baout

No one's talking about Incubi fighting Wyches. The point is that you are comparing one squad of Incubi with one squad of Wyches, which is ridiculously out of context. It neglects the fact that the Wyches are cheaper, but much more importantly, it neglects the fact that you aren't just choosing a squad of Incubi over a squad of Wyches, but a squad of Incubi + Lord over a squad of Wyches + an independent Lord who can go off and pwn heads on his own.

You can leave out talk of how you've "almost never lost a game."

1) It's unverifiable.
2) It's opponent-dependent.
3) The internet is a big place. There's no doubt someone else with an equal or better DE record who has never used Incubi.

And you're still avoiding the fact that against some of the nastiest CC units in the game, Wyches have a chance at coming out on top where Incubi die horribly. Harlies, Genestealers, old daemons, Howling Banshees. Incubi may be better at killing rank and file, but they often don't work against your opponents' real muscle.

BTW, in your example, the Wyches kill ~3 Marines and lose ~1.5 Wyches in return--and that's assuming a PFist sarge.

And Necrons stand up from PW attacks just fine with a Res Orb. Maybe you've been playing opponents who haven't discovered this useful little piece of wargear?

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:Tegeus-Cromis speaks truth. Wyches > Incubi just about everytime. The speed is what really does it. Incubi suffer from a few problem in what would otherwise be a great
HQ
Archon- jetbike, combat drugs, tormentor helm, shadow field, punisher,animus vitae, haywire grenades, plasma grenades ~176

This is an illegal combo in more than one way. First a punisher is a 2 handed weapon which cannot be used on a RJB. Two, you are over the 100 point wargear limit. The combo is ok with just a power weapon and losing one of the pieces of wargear like CD's or the Animus Vitae.

The list isn't bad however.

In any event, blah blah I have played DE a long time, Eldar was my first army, I have played Nids and Orks over the years, but DE is my favorite. The models lead to conversions which is where the hobby shines for me.

Incubi are too slow for my taste, and Wyches are cheaper and better bang for the points in my book. The Incubi models are not bad and are definitely better than the wych models...which leads to the Fantasy Wyches imo same for Warp Beast, i.e. cold ones etc.

I think the HQ is very good at what it does, and Haemmies are quite a nice fit in my book. I like a trio for 1 HQ choice with possibly one of the best flamers with random AP Falls back to my ork days.

Elites: Wyches rock, mandrakes are good in the right hands...poor models the whole Elite line btw. Grotesques are ok and decent enough to field vs certain opponents that are not fearless. Warp beast are cheap and effective especially out of portals or as counter assault.

Troops: Pretty much the best troop stateline in the game for cheap. Decent options, but not much variety imo. Oh darn I just lost like 10 warriors this turn to your 6 Marines, so what they are cheap and fodder for your victory and slaves! Sniper squads or gunboats are what most DE vets use. 2 DL in a 10 man warrior squad, or 5 man 1 Blaster, 1 SC on a Raider are cheap and very effective.

Fast Attach...man don't get me started, they are ok but hardly cost effective. I think 3 RJB's with 2 blasters make decent tank hunters or a very large squad led by a Sybarite is good at locking a squad for a turn or two, but very pricey. Hellions are great models, with not much punch.

Heavy is a true crap shoot most days. Ravagers are great, but fragile as is everything in the army. Talos is an awful model, slow, random and has horrid rules for taking out armor...I think it gets a revamp or is gone totally. Scourges make no sense, jump pack heavy support. Sure Splinter cannons are great versus hordes, but 4 DL's in one squad with hardly any armor saves? Make them have 3+ armor and maybe that makes a bit of sense.

I would wait until the new codex/models come out next year, which is what we hear. DE are up next, or maybe the 2 Demon books, not sure. But, DE are on the table and getting a total revamp. Also, they are going to be in the next installment of Dawn of War:Soulstorm coming out Q1 08'

agreed on all you've said...i personally love the incubi, and mandrakes. sure incubi don't rip through the genestealers or harlequins, but for that you just shoot the crap out of them. all of those nasty combat units are more fragile than raiders. i've never seen a stealer unit make it to battle against me. focus fire on all the nasty things in combat, then destroy what's left with your combat units.

the mandrakes make the opponent have to move since some of his squads are in combat by turn two, to get fields of fire, allowing my raiders to move into position. depend

the dark eldar army is all about finesse and making the opponent think your gonna do one thing, get ready to counteract that, and then boom, your on the other side of the table ripping through the soft parts of his army while your fire base lays the hammer down on the bigguns of his army.

yes incubi are slow, who cares? wyches aren't that much faster, unless on foot, then they die much faster. wyches may be cheaper too, but don't pack the punch that incubi do. this whole time i've been trying to say that use some incubi and wyches. take both, problem solved! if your too scared to shoot stealers and harlequins then use the wyches against them, and the use the incubi to cut their way through what's left of your opponent. either way you get the best of both worlds. it' just stupid to depend on just wyches for combat, since they can't take down units like incubi do. i may not have both, but my mandrakes act as my wyches. yes mandrakes don't have the special abilities of wych weapons but they get into combat quicker, and safer than the wyches. so my army has the
problem of taking both wyches and incubi solved. figure out what your preference is, then go for that

tegeus-Cromis wrote:No one's talking about Incubi fighting Wyches. The point is that you are comparing one squad of Incubi with one squad of Wyches, which is ridiculously out of context. It neglects the fact that the Wyches are cheaper, but much more importantly, it neglects the fact that you aren't just choosing a squad of Incubi over a squad of Wyches, but a squad of Incubi + Lord over a squad of Wyches + an independent Lord who can go off and pwn heads on his own.

You can leave out talk of how you've "almost never lost a game."

1) It's unverifiable.
2) It's opponent-dependent.
3) The internet is a big place. There's no doubt someone else with an equal or better DE record who has never used Incubi.

And you're still avoiding the fact that against some of the nastiest CC units in the game, Wyches have a chance at coming out on top where Incubi die horribly. Harlies, Genestealers, old daemons, Howling Banshees. Incubi may be better at killing rank and file, but they often don't work against your opponents' real muscle.

BTW, in your example, the Wyches kill ~3 Marines and lose ~1.5 Wyches in return--and that's assuming a PFist sarge.

And Necrons stand up from PW attacks just fine with a Res Orb. Maybe you've been playing opponents who haven't discovered this useful little piece of wargear?

i was including an agoniser in on the kill ratio, it'd be dumb not to have one in a wych squad


for the necrons, the resurrection orb isn't everywhere on the field at once, so it's not possible to cover every downed necron with it's power. and any necron (warrior or destroyer) just straight up die if you take out the whole unit and no other are units within 6" of them, so it's even easier to do than you make it out to be

i was including an agoniser in on the kill ratio, it'd be dumb not to have one in a wych squad

So was I, only I was talking averages and not lucky rolls.

for the necrons, the resurrection orb isn't everywhere on the field at once, so it's not possible to cover every downed necron with it's power.

Necrons themselves are rarely everywhere on the field at once. It is up to the Necron player to keep squads that could be assaulted by PW-wielders within Orb radius. It is really not that difficult. . . .

and any necron (warrior or destroyer) just straight up die if you take out the whole unit and no other are units within 6" of them, so it's even easier to do than you make it out to be

What does that have to do with what we're discussing?

incubi can take down that whole unit by themselves. anyways i'm over the incubi issue because you all obviously don't care about what i have to say on that.

if someone really wants to do a good list with wyches as a backbone then they should go full wych cult (since the only real loss from that is the talos which none of you like either). then you could take Lelith Hesperax and a wych dracon, who you can buy a shadow field for since the rules state that any 0-1 limit on wargear is not broke by having one in your army and then taking a special character that has the same wargear. that would make two combat beasts. then you could load up on wyches on raiders, three ravagers, and three sniper squads. that would about do it, and that army would probably be fairly competitive. and even if you didn't win you'd still have fun playing

Bastirous666 wrote:incubi can take down that whole unit by themselves. anyways i'm over the incubi issue because you all obviously don't care about what i have to say on that.

if someone really wants to do a good list with wyches as a backbone then they should go full wych cult (since the only real loss from that is the talos which none of you like either). then you could take Lelith Hesperax and a wych dracon, who you can buy a shadow field for since the rules state that any 0-1 limit on wargear is not broke by having one in your army and then taking a special character that has the same wargear. that would make two combat beasts. then you could load up on wyches on raiders, three ravagers, and three sniper squads. that would about do it, and that army would probably be fairly competitive. and even if you didn't win you'd still have fun playing

I don't recall the 0-1 restriction not applying because a Special Character already has one.

I think overall Wyches and Incubi hit on the same number on most occasions, wounding is different and thus Incubi are more "killy". Initiative wise Incubi ARE slower, they cannot fleet, and believe it or not, 3+ armor is not much better than a 4+ invulnerable save whilst in CC. Winning combat totally the way Incubi typically do, leaves you out in the open. Also, they cost a whole lot more. Speed wise Wyches are both faster on foot and on the Raider. They can fleet after disembarking and can possibly assault 12" and have better initiative, and one combat drug that allows them always to strike first regardless of other rules/initiative it seems.

Talos are great fire magnets, and objective takers. I think the rules just have past them by. They are not really skimmers which stinks, but are MC's. So no hiding them really, and they don't follow MC rules for AP, not to mention the weapon is pretty crappy. Don't get me started on the 2 power claws not = 2 CCW's. I do like the random dice roll for attacks(which is annoying and cool at the same time). Use as the old trap door spider trick(WWP + Taloi) makes up for the slow speed.

DE are frustrating to learn if you do not do your research, but they certainly are more of a connoisseur's army to tell the truth. You have to know what you are doing, and totally ignore the awful minis or make your own conversions. I cannot wait for all the rumors for DE and new models

Bastirous666 wrote:
yes incubi are slow, who cares?

Are you seriously asking that question? How on earth have you won most of your games?


Sure, Incubi are the same speed as Wyches if both are mounted. But they won't be mounted forever. Unless you have forgiving terrain or poor opponents, expect most of your most potent raiders to be shot down as they move in. This leaves you with a devastating assault unit...moving 6 inches a turn. And as anyone can tell you, an assault unit that moves 6 inches a turn isn't really an assault unit. Incubi die quicker than most in a DE army- what else are those AP 3/2 weapons going to be attacking? And if they get into combat, and win, then they are wide open to those weapons. Wyches have the speed to move from assault to assault. Incubi don't.

I'd never recommend Incubi unless it's for a fun game. They are too costly for what they do, and the Archon will work better without them slowing him down. Stick him on a Reaver and watch him go.

On a side note, Incubi are obviously more viable for a webway army. But they still suffer problems after the assault, and they are still too expensive, and they still slow the boss down.

Wyches FTW.

everyone plays with a unique style, mine is incubi heavy...so be it. you may say they aren't as good i tend to disagree. i'd have to say incubi and wyches are but even in what they are worth. each has it's own strengths and it's own weaknesses. wyches have no place in my army, so i use a bunch of incubi. i'm not saying wyches aren't good, but incubi make for an end game with me. i proxied up a unit of wyches once and didn't like the style they go for, and thought they were more flimsy than the raider they rode in. also it would be stupid to assault a squad that is isolated from the enemy main force, so that would change being worried about being standing in the open. you clear the scattered, spaced units out with sniper squads and a ravager with three discintigrators, and charge the clumped battle lines of the main army with the incubi. raider squads can even be used to herd the enemy into a specific area or draw them into it like a trap. think sneaky guys not like orks where you whack something and hope to kill it. d.eldar deserve better than that.

wyches don't all get the 4+ invulnerable also, only a dark eldar wych lord gets that. so the wyches only have a 6+ so yes the 3+ armor is much better. anyway you can technically take Lelith Hesperax and a dracon with a shadow field in the same army. i've seen it/played against it at a GW sanctioned event. however you won't get many kind comments composition wise but sometimes you might really want that win. i'd rather lose and have a butt ton of fun than win and be bored. but that's just me. some people want to win over all

this is all just my personal opinion. and i don't know any of you personally, or seen you play especially with d.eldar. the army is finikey and there are so many different styles to play so i don't know where each of you are comng from, this is an army where no one force organization proves to be the best, because no two player use all of their units in the same way. it's like saying the best army list to win all the time is to recreate the last winner of adeptacon, etc. that's foolish. therefore i have no real reason to take anything you guys say as valid points, not saying that it is or isn't. give me solid proof, such as battle reports and such, where wyches bested incubi in ability, and that prove that no matter what they will always be a better choice for me to take than my incubi. i'd be more inclined to listen in then

Bastirous666 wrote:wyches don't all get the 4+ invulnerable also, only a dark eldar wych lord gets that. so the wyches only have a 6+ so yes the 3+ armor is much better. anyway you can technically take Lelith Hesperax and a dracon with a shadow field in the same army. i've seen it/played against it at a GW sanctioned event. however you won't get many kind comments composition wise but sometimes you might really want that win. i'd rather lose and have a butt ton of fun than win and be bored. but that's just me. some people want to win over all

You don't have an updated codex then. All Wyches get 4+ dodge save in CC and I think they deserve a second look for half the cost of Incubi and a bit more speed.

I have been to a GW event where it was rather clear it was a doubles tournament with one FOC. Then a team shows up with 3 HQ's and makes it to the 2nd round. Doesn't take rocket science to know that somethings get by. I see no rule saying you can have more than one shadowfield per army. Just because a Special Character has one, who is leading your army btw, has one does not get around the 0-1 restriction. Now if you had DE as an ally with other DE, like say a Wych Cult with a Kabal sure that is 2 armies, but not in one FOC unless it's an APOC game.

I highly recommend atleast getting the DE codex update it has quite a few changes, and Wych weapons are much better now. I think you are toting around some old information and you sound a tad silly because of it. That is why others are trying to be less than gentle about prodding you along as you say with your great winning ways.

jesterzdragon wrote:
You don't have an updated codex then. All Wyches get 4+ dodge save in CC and I think they deserve a second look for half the cost of Incubi and a bit more speed.

my codex is from 2002, so what year was your book updated? because there is nothing in it about wyches with 4+ invuls in it, or in the most recent Dark Eldar FAQ on the GW website which to me says it's not still a rule

Bastirous666 wrote:

jesterzdragon wrote:
You don't have an updated codex then. All Wyches get 4+ dodge save in CC and I think they deserve a second look for half the cost of Incubi and a bit more speed.

my codex is from 2002, so what year was your book updated? because there is nothing in it about wyches with 4+ invuls in it, or in the most recent Dark Eldar FAQ on the GW website which to me says it's not still a rule

If your book is the newest edition it should have "Second Edition" stamped on the cover.

Wyches were the main beneficiaries of the update. They got a 4+ Invulnerable save in close combat (hence more useful than Incubi against elite troops), as well as the whole squad recieving Wyche weapons, which deny any unit fighting them an extra attack for having an additional CCW, and also halves the weapon skill of any unit fighting them (if they are under strength 6). All very useful.

I wasn't suggesting you charge Incubi into an isolated squad. I was suggesting you charge them into the main battle line, and the opponent then isolates you. This is what good opponents do. If somone came to me and expected to hop from assault to assault with a squad that moves 6 inches, I'd laugh in their face. It just doesn't happen to good players. Wyches have fleet, which just gives them that little extra push, and they may also have a 12 inch assault move, depending on what results you score for combat drugs.

Bastirous666 wrote:

jesterzdragon wrote:
You don't have an updated codex then. All Wyches get 4+ dodge save in CC and I think they deserve a second look for half the cost of Incubi and a bit more speed.

my codex is from 2002, so what year was your book updated? because there is nothing in it about wyches with 4+ invuls in it, or in the most recent Dark Eldar FAQ on the GW website which to me says it's not still a rule

For this discussion I think a picture is in order...



You will note the Skull and Crossbones and it says Second Edition. It says second edition inside and second printing by the copyright of 2001.

that is the exact same book i have and nothing in it says anything about 4+ invuls on the regular wych squads. anyway if yu guys think wyches are that invaluable then i'll take another look at them and possibly sub them for my two 10 man mandrake units and my talos. i'll give it a shot

Look harder! I'm not a DE player, but I know that there isn't some conspiracy to deceive you. The inv. save and buffed Wych weapons are real.

If you weren't aware of these things, your attitude towards Wyches is much more understandable. They would truly suck without them.

Look real close to see if you have the little white circle that says 2nd Ed. Because if so the rules are right there for wyches. Otherwise you have 1st printing and they still have the option for hydrablades and things of that nature. If you see any options for anything other than generic wych weapons you have the wrong codex.

Another clue is if you are missing the DE vehicle upgrades

Orion

ok so my codex is right in front of me now. it has a big second edition stamp on the front upper right corner (about as big as the head of the guy in the lower left corner) mine was printed in 2002, says on the first page Copyright Games Workshop Ltd, 1998, 2001. Second Printing. the wych lord has a special rule entry stating "wych lords benefit from a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat..." under the wych entry there is nothing about a holy crap i did just find it. wow!

you guys are correct and i feel really dumb. you have just enlightened me and now i am definitely gonna drop those two mandrake units and the talos for two units of wyches on raiders. i apologize for any rudeness that has occurred in this post, and i admit that i was in the wrong.

Bastirous666 wrote:ok so my codex is right in front of me now. it has a big second edition stamp on the front upper right corner (about as big as the head of the guy in the lower left corner) mine was printed in 2002, says on the first page Copyright Games Workshop Ltd, 1998, 2001. Second Printing. the wych lord has a special rule entry stating "wych lords benefit from a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat..." under the wych entry there is nothing about a holy crap i did just find it. wow!

you guys are correct and i feel really dumb. you have just enlightened me and now i am definitely gonna drop those two mandrake units and the talos for two units of wyches on raiders. i apologize for any rudeness that has occurred in this post, and i admit that i was in the wrong.

oh any you guys should all g check out my story in fluff for nutters and dakka fiction. it's labeled Word Bearers Story or Kamen the Malificant, Dark Apostle

That last edit counts as spam. Get rid of it.

Wyches are the assault backbone of any DE army. They're the only thing in the army that can stand up to the elites of other armies. And even if you don't use them, drop the Talos. It's useless in a non-webway army, and not that great there either.

Ahaha, no harm done. See, that's what really pulls the teeth of nasty assault units (along with Wych weapons). They're like DAs who can actually kill things in CC.

See, I am glad we can all get along. Now that you are even better armed with Wyches you can really own your opponent and reap the slaves we all want. I might even take a few off your hands.

I often find myself in the middle of playing Eldar saying splinter and thinking about what combat drugs my Exarch should take. But, alas it is not to be.

lol yea i always use the +1 S and the reroll misses drug for my lord, sometimes even throw the +1 attack in f i'm feeling gutsy. the D.eldar lords can be brutal, killing 4-6 guy a turn with some good rolling! i love it.

now that i'll be using wyches too, how should i use them since i've never really used them yet. should they divert attention from the incubi? be the forerunners of my assault line so that i can tie up a bunch of things right away? or should i use them in a different manner than that totally.

Typically I go with 7 Wyches, PG's, Wych Weapons, 2 blasters and a Succubi with agonizer/sp combo. Raider with a DL or Dissie/Horrorfex combo if I have the points. On occasion I use a Punisher/TH on the Succubi, especially brutal if you get the +1 str drug pr fighting T3 opponents.

Now also consider the Goblet of Spite and a small suicide squad of Wyches with Haywires. Try to assault more than one vehicle if you can, because they will die afterwards Remember you hit on a 3+ even skimmers, and the opponent if it has a WS of its own, hits on a 3+.

Anything more than 8 wyches and I think its a bit pricey and overkill. You want to finish off your opponent in his phase. This is doubly true with wyches and the 6+ save vs shooting.

Now, you can also take Warp beast which are a very good buy. I have been taking 3 beast and the beastmaster lately, but its great counter-assault or support out of a WWP.

IMO, blasters generally aren't worth it in Wyche squads. I find that maximising their HtH capabilities is the best route to take, as by and large they'll be fleeting in the shooting phase anyhow. Blaster hits are almost guaranteed casualties, which may put the targeted unit out of range. There's better shooty stuff in the rest of the DE army, so it's best not to dilute the combat skills of the Wyches as the rest of your army can take up the slcak in shooting.

Hmm, maybe I see more vehicles than you do. I think they are great upgrades if you have the points. It is a low cost for a huge gain in my book. If the wych unit takes out a vehicle then they are that much closer to getting you some points. Sometimes you have to blow up a tank or few to get to the cream filling. I am certainly not going to ride on the death trap Raider for longer than I have too in hopes of finding something I can assault.

Also, I cannot tell you the number of times blasters were both a surprise and a big game changing event. Honestly who expects a HtH unit to pack a mini dark lance that is assault? I have had a lone wych kill Penitent Engines alone, and knock a Landspeeder off an objective that gave me the game. All of this for basically 10 points for 2. 2 Str 3 attacks in HtH is not a great loss. Some would even argue you don't lose attacks due to blasters not being defined as one handed or two. They are modeled with one hand, so who knows. I don't know what you are really losing by not "maximizing their HtH capability."

Sure, I will grant you that you might cost yourself a charge and for that wyches will be hosed. But, that is rectified by experience in judging distances. If you are iffy, then do not shoot, fleet.

Wyches are just as good at shooting as anyone else really. I think blasters are insurance, one that I would bet many vets out there with other armies would gladly pay for in there units. Besides that is what DE are about. Mobile, high octane power, with little to no resilience.

jesterzdragon wrote: I don't know what you are really losing by not "maximizing their HtH capability."

...But, that is rectified by experience in judging distances. If you are iffy, then do not shoot, fleet.

My bad, I was thinking in a house rules mindset, where firing weapons before the charge robs you of your charging bonus.

Also, I have dyscalcula- judging distances is nigh on impossible for me. Consequently I can never hedge my bets, as I tend to misjudge distances pretty badly.