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Posted By Therion on 11/01/2007 8:56 AM

You don't seem to get it. The point was that it doesn't matter how the Orks deploy, the Eldar can attack a portion of the Ork army with their entire army and annihilate it. What the Orks can do next is take shots and hits at the Falcons and hope that just like those Imperial Guardsmen shooting at Terminators, get lucky.

Posted By Therion on 11/01/2007 8:56 AM

How is that? They hit on 6's and the lucky ones are just glancing hits.

A probabilty is still a probability. The Falcon's might have an awesome adventage but still there is the factor of randomness. The game ain't played "Okay math says a lascannon takes 11.6 shots to blow out a Falcon so you gotta fire atleast 11 shots to blow it out" a bunch of lucky ugly Orks with nice 'lil weapons can blow out Falcons and Wave Serpents just as easily as any other army can. It can happen on the first shot, the 11th shot or the 100th shot.

And considering that the Eldar army facing this Ork Tourney list will most probably be an all comers list(aka anti-MEQ) instead of an "Annihilate the Orks" half the Eldar army won't be able to do anything (6 of any specialist in the Eldar army can't hold out against 20-30 boys sorry... its a matter of math) which leaves the only solution in Dire Avengers and skimmers. Dire Avengers will most probably get charged the next turn when they get outta their Wave Serpents and fire, and if the Ork player ain't the most unlucky fella on the face of the planet he is bound to roll some 6's from those dice to blow out the Falcons.

What "Voodoo Boyz" is talking about is, Orks have an adventage over the Tourney MEQ hunter Eldar armies which is numbers. And it all comes down to the "Can you wipe them out before they reach your lines?" question. He belives Orks have a shot at the answer to that question, as they would be the unexpected or "Not easily counterable with tailoring with the anti-MEQ list". So do I.

You Eldar players claim that the Orks can't blow the Falcons, fine by me. What you gonna do against 100 Orks with three Falcons? Tank shock them to impassable terrain?

Doesn't the UKGT FAQ state that if you tank shock and they have no where to go except impassible terrain or the edge of the board, the Tank just stops to let them stay where they are anyway?

All I'm saying is that there are plenty of answers to the Orks, and Eldar are a perfect example of an army that can deal with GEQ and MEQ just fine with the same units.

Let me present to you the most imbalanced weapon in all of 40K: The Heavy Flamer. S5 AP4, massive template that autohits even models partially touched by it. There is no way to miss with the Heavy Flamer, it allows no cover saves and ignores all but MEQ armour saves. We're talking about a weapon here that is the prime answer to 15 point Lootas and 12 point Stormboyz.

As you should all know by now, mech Eldar play by combining a lot of strength in one position to break it before moving to the next one. A squad of Harlequins kills 9 Orks on the charge, which means that if the Eldar want to annihilate the entire unit in one go they have to kill let's say 6 Orks with some Shuriken and Heavy Flamer fire. They might not want to do that however since there won't be any Orks striking back and the remainder of the mob will die in the Ork players' turn. That effectively means that when charging in a vacuum each 6 strong Harlequin unit can take down a unit of 15 Orks on their own without suffering any casualties. Autarchs and Bike Squads and Fire Dragons can combine forces to take down two more mobs.


I intend to kill 40 of the most expensive Orks in one turn of horrendous bloodshed while blocking the remaining 60 any chance of counter-assault. Then I'll mow down the rest.


I've already posted a tourney MEQ hunter Eldar army that just for the shooting phase boasts 6 Meltaguns, 3 Pulse Lasers, 3 Singing Spear Lascannons, 6 Shuriken Cannons, 3 Heavy Flamers and one 'Immolator' Heavy Flamer. It has absolutely no trouble against tank columns (22 models can also destroy tanks in close combat), Marine hordes or Ork armies, since every unit in the army can seriously hurt any unit/model in the game. Basically, you're wrong about Eldar. They're very flexible when built right.

Patsup:

Sure, but randomness cuts both ways. On what basis do you declare in the Orks' favour?

Therion has got the rest.

Posted By Therion on 11/01/2007 8:18 PM

I've already posted a tourney MEQ hunter Eldar army that just for the shooting phase boasts 6 Meltaguns, 3 Pulse Lasers, 3 Singing Spear Lascannons, 6 Shuriken Cannons, 3 Heavy Flamers and one 'Immolator' Heavy Flamer. It has absolutely no trouble against tank columns (22 models can also destroy tanks in close combat), Marine hordes or Ork armies, since every unit in the army can seriously hurt any unit/model in the game. Basically, you're wrong about Eldar. They're very flexible when built right.

Nice list by the way. Tough let me see... One turn of Jetbike shooting from the Lootas instead of Falcon shooting and one casuality from each Jetbike squad means you take a morale check, a second one means the squad is at %50 and a third means its history forth means its all VP. I don't know about you but Lootas can handle that kind of firepower.

Orks can rokkit those bikes. Oh wait, yes yes you'll say that they have an invulnerable save because they turbo boosted. If they have turbo boosted that means a- they can get charged by the Orks b- by the storm boyz or c- by the warboss. What the jetbikes have that kind of a situation? Nothing I guess and that leaves you with 1 flamer I think.

And if the Fire Dragons and Herlies ain't suicidal, they won't be getting outta their Falcons before the Falcons actually hurts the squads in general. Considering that Lootas can glance the Falcons they won't be firing all the time and neither the Harlies or Fire Dragons nor the Autarch can take down 30 boys all by themselves.

Oh and one more thing, the tear drop flamer template can house up to 12 models and that is with the models staying base to base.

Even tough that list poses a great serious threat to the Orks, the Orks poses a more serious threat to the units that causes a threat to them. And it comes to the same equation again. Can you safely kill that many Orks standing right in their kill zone? If you can, good for you, if you can't you will find yourself assaulted by a sea of greenskins that none of your units can tackle.

I believe thats the general idea of the Horde of Orks.

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 11/02/2007 1:14 AM

Sure, but randomness cuts both ways. On what basis do you declare in the Orks' favour?

Therion has got the rest.

Well, I'm using the simple math that the Eldar players bases their thesis about Falcons being immune to the Orks. They are the ones rolling the most dice in a game like that. And the randomness has a greater chance to come out of those dices.

What does this even mean? "The randomness has a greater chance to". . . the what now?

Patsup, if you don't think the Harlies have a very good chance of wiping out Mobz of Orks wholesale then you need to just roll some dice out. Things are not pretty for Orks when Harlies hit.

I'm posting my thoughts on his new list in his own thread, but suffice it to say that it's very potent against Orks.

that's because nobody does.



the eldar counter to the orks basically amounts to "box things into tight little piles with falcons and hose them with destructor". it works, unfortunately, because the falcons are more or less ork-proof pushbrooms and as therion himself says, heavy flamers are kind of broken. well, they're not really broken, unless you have the benefit of a falcon to sweep stuff into little piles to ignite. doesn't take a particularly imaginative eldar player to do it, just one willing the exploit their falcons. the damn things are even immune to the shokk attack gun's "automatic penetration" result, aren't they?

They're not immune to it, but like all penetrating hits againt fast-moving skimmers, it gets downgraded to a glancing hit.

holofalcons are all but immune to glancing hits

A single loota squad has a 27.8% chance of either destoying or immobilizing a Falcon. If the Falcon is immobile, then it's PK bait. 3 of them average .83 Falcons dropped per turn of firing.