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Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Speedracer, you are officially warned for profanity and flaming. Continued posting in said manner will result in stronger disciplinary action, up to and including banning.

Please post in accordance with the forum rules.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
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Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Devastating Dark Reaper




Catskill New York

Green Blow Fly wrote:I never have a problem getting in a game, except for making time in my busy schedule to play.


@ Fedral - Pls PM a copy of the army list you used for that tournament. Thanks.

- G


Ever get to play the same opponents twice?

My other car is a Wave Serpent 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




New Mexico

the 'hard fast evidence' that Yak desires is in Green Bloater's post where he cites the diagram with space marines right behind the oil drums. in this case, the genestealers were out in the open and not immediately next to the terrain (like the diagram suggests they need to be).

also, there is something to be said for the term 'behind.' the term behind is used to describe something that is 'on the other side of something' and not in view. given that a group of models is 'in' something, and their LOS looks 'out' of something, the thing they're looking at is not behind the trees. if the group of models are on opposite sides of terrain piece, then the unit being viewed (or not viewed in this case) would be 'behind' the terrain.

i've had this dilemma before, and the problem is what Yak states: there's no definition of behind, except the one implied by the diagram, and in the entire context of the rule section.

so i would say that if you wanted to claim a bonus for assaulting a unit behind cover, that unit must be immediately behind it (no more than 1/4") and your line of site to that unit must be going through the terrain piece and not coming out of it.

most people on here recognize a poorly written rule and try to compensate for it by playing to the spirit of the rules. we all debate over the RAW, but that doesn't mean we should exploit the RAW and twist it around when we need to.

one way to tell if someone is doing this is the context in which they're doing it. if someone is in a tight spot and they're not doing very well in a game, these rule 'twists' tend to show up and you will often hear "oh i've always played it like that" or "oh i've had this ruled on by GW's rulez boyz."


I think I like it RAW. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

The Broodlord and the lone genestealer left in its retinue were approximately an inch from the terrain that the Marines moved through... it's not like the Marines charged five inches through open ground. The way this piece of terrain was layed out there was a section that forked out towards the Tyranids like a peninsula and the Marines had to charge through this section to travel the shortest distance to reach them.

I have played many of the same people at that store in pickup games.

I spoke with the store management about this and they said in the future to roll a d6 to decide issues like that. I am fine with that. Like I said I have played the rule this way since 4th edition was released and it has been a non-issue more than the majority of the time. I have seen people complain that a unit behind cover gets to have I10 the turn they are charged.

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Green Blow Fly wrote:The Broodlord and the lone genestealer left in its retinue were approximately an inch from the terrain that the Marines moved through... it's not like the Marines charged five inches through open ground. The way this piece of terrain was layed out there was a section that forked out towards the Tyranids like a peninsula and the Marines had to charge through this section to travel the shortest distance to reach them.

I have played many of the same people at that store in pickup games.

I spoke with the store management about this and they said in the future to roll a d6 to decide issues like that. I am fine with that. Like I said I have played the rule this way since 4th edition was released and it has been a non-issue more than the majority of the time. I have seen people complain that a unit behind cover gets to have I10 the turn they are charged.

- G


Correction Steve.
1) My models were at least 3 inches from those woods, not 1".
2) It was a rough oval piece of woods and your Marines were entirely in them
3) The only people at Rhubarb that will play you are Gareth and a few people too new to know better.
4) When you were told the first time that you and I should just roll a D6 to decide it in accordance with the store's policy on arguements that don't end, you CATEGORICALLY REFUSED to roll because you had decided that you just wanted your way.
5) The only reason I let you do it, was to avoid having to take my blood pressure meds and ruin my whole day.
6) I believe that you were deliberately being as stubborn as possible to draw out the game and deny me my last turn.
7 Unless we are in a tourney situation, I will NOT be playing you again... ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/11/16 02:23:10


Fire claws innocents without number
As charred cinders replace green life
Death takes good and evil to their slumber
And guilt stabs into me with its knife 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine




Murfreesboro, TN

OK, calm it down. This is a rules forum, not one for airing local dirty laundry. If it doesn't have to do with the rules, then don't say it.

As a rule of thumb, the designers do not hide "easter eggs" in the rules. If clever reading is required to unlock some sort of hidden option, then it is most likely the result of wishful thinking.

But there's no sense crying over every mistake;
You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Member of the "No Retreat for Calgar" Club 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA

Personally I think they way they handle cover in 40K is so stupid. Also, why would frags work on units in cover but not in the open. This is how situations like yours can occur. Say you HAD been in cover, my IG (init 3) would go simul with grenades, you would think you would be more entrenched in cover and thus allowed to go first, vs, being in the open and me using grenades which I cant with the current rules. The only reason this even exists methinks is so that people will buy frag grenades. This makes it better to charge into cover for initiative reasons. Its stupid.

I think cover should be changed in a future edition to somthing like this:

If a unit charges an enemy unit in cover the unit in cover may stand and shoot, and the charging unit only hits on 6's. Frag grenades prevent the unit in cover from standing and shooting, however the enemy unit is still only hit on 6's in the turn the charging unit charges. Attacks are taken in initiative order. After the first turn of combat hits are resolved normally.

Frag grenades used by a charging unit on an enemy unit in the open in the turn they charge allow both units to strike simultaneously.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Longtime Dakkanaut







Let me come to GBF's defense here. I've got no stake in this argument, but Yak is right - the situation is not as cut and dried as it seems. Last year, I was on AdeptiCon's 40K FAQ committee, and that was one of the questions we addressed. What we came up with is one of the "house rules" that Mauleed likes to decry, because by the strictest interpretation of the RAW, GBF is right.


"I was not making fun of you personally - I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea - a practice I shall always follow." - Lt. Colonel Dubois, Starship Troopers

Don't settle for the pewter horde! Visit http://www.bkarmypainting.com and find out how you can have a well-painted army quickly at a reasonable price. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

Thanks Bill. I really appreciate it.

: )

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

I stick by what I said regarding the terrain placement and position of the units.

Dan - In regards to playing there I have never had a problem finding a friendly pickup game. What you said is untrue. In fact I have played Hod, Sean, Steve and others there including Shane many times and they are all regulars. If you don't want to play me that is fine. You made a few mistakes during the game such as placing down the large blast template when you had missed to hit with one of your carnifexen for instance. I think it was an honest mistake and it was no big deal. You picked up the template and we went onto with the game. I never stall when playing.

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

Centurian99 wrote:Let me come to GBF's defense here. I've got no stake in this argument, but Yak is right - the situation is not as cut and dried as it seems. Last year, I was on AdeptiCon's 40K FAQ committee, and that was one of the questions we addressed. What we came up with is one of the "house rules" that Mauleed likes to decry, because by the strictest interpretation of the RAW, GBF is right.



I'll weigh in for the opposition, as the Head Judge for GW Baltimore Games Day 2007 RTTs, I would have said not just no, but H*** No.

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




New Mexico

Centurian99 wrote:Let me come to GBF's defense here. I've got no stake in this argument, but Yak is right - the situation is not as cut and dried as it seems. Last year, I was on AdeptiCon's 40K FAQ committee, and that was one of the questions we addressed. What we came up with is one of the "house rules" that Mauleed likes to decry, because by the strictest interpretation of the RAW, GBF is right.



there is no such thing as the 'strictest interpretation of the RAW.' there is no interpretation whatsoever. the RAW is NOT clear on the matter.

I think I like it RAW. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

That depends on who you talk to. I am not saying my interpretation is correct but most of the people I play agree. Is that valid support? Probably not but if you play a rule a certain way and most people you play agree then it can become a habit.

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine



Long Island, New York

And right there, GBF, you hit the nail on the head. It is a problem that occurs when you just simply pick out a sentence in the rules and want to apply it to the spirit of the game. It is why people use the terms "rules lawyering" and/or "rules nazi" and/or "professional gamer". I am not disrespecting anybody, just pointing out a fact. I see how yak and others are looking at the wording and absolutely see why you play it that way. But GBF, yak, Cent99 really need to understand that when you play it a GT outside of your local house rules and/or YMDC rulings, that most players tend to follow a more sprit of the game approach. It is a game created by gamers without the expertise/knowledge of "lawyer contractual language". They are going to assume that people will use common sense. Not to say that playing strictly RAW is wrong, just that maybe GBF should have diced it off. ESPECIALLY when the event judge ruled that way.
Here it comes GBF, Who the F do you think you are?! A judge ruled against you and you refuse to follow his ruling. That sounds like grounds for removal from the tourney. I don't know you from a hole in the wall, so don't get all bent, it is jusy my humble opinion. No matter how right you felt you were, you follow the judges rule over the RAW.

War is not your recreation. It is the reason for your existence. Prepare for it well.
~CODEX ASTARTES

Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops.
~Rogal Dorn  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

"I am not disrespecting anybody..."

"Here it comes GBF, Who the F do you think you are?! A judge ruled against you and you refuse to follow his ruling. That sounds like grounds for removal from the tourney."

Right.

- G

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2007/11/16 14:55:04


ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

So you read one issue with a rule and assume I am the bad guy. Did you know:

1) The judge in question stated he was unclear on the rule and was concerned about the passage that states initiative bonus is ignored during the second round of close combat. This had nothing to do with the issue.
2) Dan has had his fair share of rules issues in past tournaments there.

Sure this particular rule is hot to touch but at the time this was a pivotal point in the game and I felt I was getting shafted so I asserted myself. People should assert themselves by the way too, otherwise you will just be another stepping stone.

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior





Well, after reading and re-reading this thread I still come to the conclusion that GBF did think he was in the right, and it could be read that way in part by only reading certain parts of the rules. I understand the situation and I clearly believe one way that I have stated before, but the rules are not clear enough to make a firm decision either way. Memories of the terrain and placement aside, I think if the models are out in the open, then the spirit of the rules is that the frag grenades have no use. Other grenades would and that is the hard issue.

I would be hard pressed to give a firm ruling myself, but on the matter a D6 is common practice. If the judge ruled that way, regardless of his and your personal feelings, then dice it. You are not a stepping stone, you are a guest at the store. If you did not want to roll the dice, you were more than free to leave. I mean it is a game, most stores would even consider refunding your entry fee. Likely in the future they will have an FAQ like other stores to prevent that situation from occurring again.

In the heat of the moment it is understandable to want to get your point across and want a fair ruling. But, in light of the circumstances the judge made a ruling, and that should have been that. I would have thought stalling myself once we had a ruling if you persisted on.

We all have rule questions/problems. Some of us just deal with it in other ways that surprisingly is covered in the book itself.

"Confidence is my weapon, arrogance my armor"
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

I said next time I will d6 a rule issue after speaking with one of the store owners for clarification. As far as I know this policy is not made known on a firsthand basis. The person who was referred to as a judge in this incident is not one of the two store owners (who I consider to be the actual judges), but does help with the painting scores.

- G

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2007/11/16 15:57:34


ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Green Blow Fly wrote:Sure this particular rule is hot to touch but at the time this was a pivotal point in the game and I felt I was getting shafted so I asserted myself. People should assert themselves by the way too, otherwise you will just be another stepping stone.

- G


Quote Fixed:

Sure this particular rule is hot to touch but at the time this was a pivotal point in the game and I felt I was losing so I tried my best to weasel out a win. People should play to win, no matter what the costs by the way too, I have an inferiority complex.

- G

...to avoid any confusion, the italics are my edits.

*bow*

<3

And God said unto Abraham, "Take this mighty bolter, my son, and smite thy enemies from afar. Fear not, Emperor protects..er, I mean, well, youknowwhatImean." 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Seen as how I've heard some of GBF's comments, I would never play against you except in a real life boxing match. Nobody likes a rule nazi or lawyer, which is which you are and did in a tournement. If I was running that tourne I would have disqualified you for your blatent intent on trying to make the rules work for you. If the judges/organizers called it, why would you not give it up till you got it your way?

Plus, I really dislike GBF...


What up bitches? 
   
 
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