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dogma wrote:As a point of fact you can't destroy language or culture. Both articles are organic ideas which evolve over time and can never really be replaced.

Also, the vast majority of the voice against American immigration policies is not from illegals, but rather legal immigrants and college students. The general point of these movements is not that America is bad, but that it can be improved.

1. Tell that to the Native Americans- you sure can eliminate a culture.

2. The vast majority of the voice are from people who benefit from illegal immigrants.

jfrazell wrote:
1. Tell that to the Native Americans- you sure can eliminate a culture.

2. The vast majority of the voice are from people who benefit from illegal immigrants.

No, my friend. You are incorrect
1) My grandmother's people didn't have their culture eliminated. It just evolved... into a roadside souvenir and casino culture.

2) That should be the vast amount of ENGLISH SPEAKING voice.

Seriously, though... I remember the rallies that have happened in the last couple years. There are plenty of citizens and LEGAL immigrants who showed up to protest. I'd even say they were in the majority.

Know what, though? they're the only ones who had a RIGHT to be there. Illegal immigrants don't have the right to assemble.

They were sure there, though... Waving their FOREIGN flags and trying to force themselves down our throats. I'm sorry.
I SHOULDN'T have to assimilate Mexican or any other culture into my daily life.
Why? This is not MEXICO or any other country. Want national assimilation of your culture? Go back to the country where that culture came from. This country should not have to make drastic changes to show that we accept your culture. Just "saying so" should be enough.

I SHOULDN'T have to hear "Marque dos para Espanol" when I call my phone company (or any other company in the US).
Why? Because the national language here is ENGLISH! Plus, I find is racist when companies offer Spanish speaking options. Why do I feel that way? Do they offer options for Italian? French? Turkish? Polish? No. They simply put Spanish on a pedestal. I say that, if you're going to offer options for ONE foreign language, you should have to offer them ALL.

And don't even get me started on calling an 800# and getting some guy in India whose name just HAPPENS to be "Ted," yet he can't understand me and I can't understand him.

Yeah, "Ted." Thanks anyway.


Eric

Your grandma, my grandma, hell everyone's grandma. Everyone has native grandparents. I have yet to meet anyone in the US that didn't.

The fact you tried to use your "Grandma" as representative of NA/Indian/Indeginous groups shows how little you understand the problems. Many tribes, in fact most, have lost their language. Europe was quite effecient. Some groups have taken up projects to save the languages, such as the Lakota and Cherokee, but others don't have enough speakers to do it. The most common religious ceremony is the Pow wow and it was invented for the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show.

MagickalMemories wrote:
I SHOULDN'T have to hear "Marque dos para Espanol" when I call my phone company (or any other company in the US).
Why? Because the national language here is ENGLISH! Plus, I find is racist when companies offer Spanish speaking options. Why do I feel that way? Do they offer options for Italian? French? Turkish? Polish? No. They simply put Spanish on a pedestal. I say that, if you're going to offer options for ONE foreign language, you should have to offer them ALL.

And don't even get me started on calling an 800# and getting some guy in India whose name just HAPPENS to be "Ted," yet he can't understand me and I can't understand him.

Yeah, "Ted." Thanks anyway.


Eric

They're not putting it on a pedestal, they're serving their customers and making money. If there was equivalent demand for a Polish language option, they'd have it. I'd have a bigger problem if there was a law saying that they couldn't speak Spanish. English isn't really an official national language. It's just the most popular default language. If you want to tell all the US citizens in Puerto Rico that they need to be re-educated, be my guest.

The outsourcing of call-center jobs to India is a completely unrelated issue to illegal immigration.

Asmodai wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I SHOULDN'T have to hear "Marque dos para Espanol" when I call my phone company (or any other company in the US).
Why? Because the national language here is ENGLISH! Plus, I find is racist when companies offer Spanish speaking options. Why do I feel that way? Do they offer options for Italian? French? Turkish? Polish? No. They simply put Spanish on a pedestal. I say that, if you're going to offer options for ONE foreign language, you should have to offer them ALL.

And don't even get me started on calling an 800# and getting some guy in India whose name just HAPPENS to be "Ted," yet he can't understand me and I can't understand him.

Yeah, "Ted." Thanks anyway.


Eric

They're not putting it on a pedestal, they're serving their customers and making money. If there was equivalent demand for a Polish language option, they'd have it. I'd have a bigger problem if there was a law saying that they couldn't speak Spanish. English isn't really an official national language. It's just the most popular default language. If you want to tell all the US citizens in Puerto Rico that they need to be re-educated, be my guest.

The outsourcing of call-center jobs to India is a completely unrelated issue to illegal immigration.

Until the late sixties English indeed was in fact the defacto official language. French was supressed in Louisiana in favor of English. indeed Spanish was likewise supressed in Cali and Texas. Frankly we need a common language, else the nation will break apart. As noted there are 8 gazillion languages here and we need to be able to communicate. In the US that language is English.

jfrazell wrote:

Asmodai wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I SHOULDN'T have to hear "Marque dos para Espanol" when I call my phone company (or any other company in the US).
Why? Because the national language here is ENGLISH! Plus, I find is racist when companies offer Spanish speaking options. Why do I feel that way? Do they offer options for Italian? French? Turkish? Polish? No. They simply put Spanish on a pedestal. I say that, if you're going to offer options for ONE foreign language, you should have to offer them ALL.

And don't even get me started on calling an 800# and getting some guy in India whose name just HAPPENS to be "Ted," yet he can't understand me and I can't understand him.

Yeah, "Ted." Thanks anyway.


Eric

They're not putting it on a pedestal, they're serving their customers and making money. If there was equivalent demand for a Polish language option, they'd have it. I'd have a bigger problem if there was a law saying that they couldn't speak Spanish. English isn't really an official national language. It's just the most popular default language. If you want to tell all the US citizens in Puerto Rico that they need to be re-educated, be my guest.

The outsourcing of call-center jobs to India is a completely unrelated issue to illegal immigration.

Until the late sixties English indeed was in fact the defacto official language. French was supressed in Louisiana in favor of English. indeed Spanish was likewise supressed in Cali and Texas. Frankly we need a common language, else the nation will break apart. As noted there are 8 gazillion languages here and we need to be able to communicate. In the US that language is English.

Switzerland (French, German, Italian), Belgium (French, Flemish), Canada (English, French), China (Mandarin, Cantonese), India (English, Hindi, + too many to count) have all managed alright. Yugoslavia, the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia all had other factors pulling them apart than just language.

I don't think that accommodation of Spanish speakers is that big a deal - especially for first generation immigrants. There are tons of Italian grandparents who speak very little English. Their children and grandchildren all do. The same thing seems to be mostly true with Mexican immigrants. They want their children to do well, and the way to do well is to speak English. Hispanics also make up a greater proportion of the US military than the general population - which is another way to emphasize English.

I recall that when California tried to introduce Spanish language schools, it was Hispanic immigrants who didn't want their kids to be second class citizens who fought hardest against it.

I don't think that offering a 70 year old grandfather the ability to file his tax return in a language he can understand will rip the nation apart.

Asmodai wrote:They're not putting it on a pedestal, they're serving their customers and making money. If there was equivalent demand for a Polish language option, they'd have it. I'd have a bigger problem if there was a law saying that they couldn't speak Spanish. English isn't really an official national language. It's just the most popular default language. If you want to tell all the US citizens in Puerto Rico that they need to be re-educated, be my guest.

Oh, yeah. You're right, there. No doubt about it. They're serving their customers and making money.
... and they're doing it by catering to illegal immigrants and legal immigrants who are not learning the language.
That is the only reason for the demand you refer to. If those immigrants came in here and took care to intigrate THEMSELVES into American culture, instead of expecting America to assimilate into THEM, it wouldn't be an issue.

Puerto Rico is not what I'm referring to here.
I'm referring to the 50 states when I sau "United States."
That being the case, however, there are some facts that do matter.
Puerto Rico is a commonwealth associated with the US. They have had their own consitiution since the 1950's. They aren't represented by a voting member in congress. they can't vote for president and (most importantly), they don't have to pay Federal taxes.
If they don't pay taxes then, IMO, they don't get a say so.
If I had it MY way, English WOULD be the official language of the United States and a certain level of ability with it would be a requirement for immigrants seeking US Citizenship. I wouldn't expect mastery... but, by God, they'd better be able to have an understandable conversation. If that meant Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam and the rest of the US Commonwealths & territories, then so-be-it.

Considering that -at least- Puerto Rico has its' own constitution, I doubt that any referrendum of such requirements within the 50 states would have to include them.

Asmodai wrote:
The outsourcing of call-center jobs to India is a completely unrelated issue to illegal immigration.

That is correct... which is why it got no more than a passing reference.
It was a valid reference, however, in that it concerns language, which was the topic of my post.


Eric

I don't think that offering a 70 year old grandfather the ability to file his tax return in a language he can understand will rip the nation apart.

I speak Tagalog
I have a heart attack
ambulance comes
They speak Spanish.
What do I do?

Canada continually deals with referendums and threats by French Quebec to secede. Lots of countries have split apart.

From LEGAL immigrants!? Are you kidding. PPl who come here legally like the first generation of my family rarely have any sympathy for those that break the law to get here. My uncles, aunts and parents were paying taxes from day one. In the meantime complaining about how so many others come here at thier lesiure. Do you even know any legal immigrants? You have to be kidding. Those who follow the law usually dont respect those who dont.

Switzerland (French, German, Italian

That's a seriously bad example. In Switzerland first of all the different cultures hate each other. ok maybe not hate but they are ver distrustful of each other and dislike each other. and it doesn't work in the schools only 10% actually graduate college because you have to learn like 5 different languages it's hard.
Also we have a fourth national language: romanian

smart_alex wrote:From LEGAL immigrants!? Are you kidding. PPl who come here legally like the first generation of my family rarely have any sympathy for those that break the law to get here. My uncles, aunts and parents were paying taxes from day one. In the meantime complaining about how so many others come here at thier lesiure. Do you even know any legal immigrants? You have to be kidding. Those who follow the law usually dont respect those who dont.

I wonder if this doesn't stem from some urban myth, or self delusion. Illegal immigrant wants to believe that legal immigrants side with them so it starts making the rounds that they do. All the legal immigrants I ever heard talk about it are like your aunts and uncles. The last article I read about immigration was about a lobby group that was made up of legal immigrants that were anti-illegal immigrant (the joke? the leader had been in the US for 30+ years and couldn't speak english )

It must be self dilusion. Many of these people dont even know how to read and use that as thier excuse for not being able to fill out an application for a visa. Because of this Los Angeles is rapidly becoming America's 1st third world city (as far as literacy rate). I dont know what would trigger the thought in somone's mind where if they have no education, money, future, or career whatsoever that it is a good idea to have 12 kids.

snorkle wrote:

Switzerland (French, German, Italian

That's a seriously bad example. In Switzerland first of all the different cultures hate each other. ok maybe not hate but they are ver distrustful of each other and dislike each other. and it doesn't work in the schools only 10% actually graduate college because you have to learn like 5 different languages it's hard.
Also we have a fourth national language: romanian

Well, there you go.

Straight from the horses... err... snorkle.



Eric

Well, a lot to respond to.

There is a lot of talk about assmiliation to "American" culture, but what is American culture? We are not a nation like England or France, with a shared history and culture, we are a country of immigrants, of many languages, customs, and proud histories. Who defines American culture? Who has the right to say "My culture dictates all others."? In the southwest, land that was Mexico and home to millions of Spanish speaking people, who is to say that the culture that has been present here for far longer must be replaced or must be demonized? Is it so wrong that some people choose to speak their parent's language? Is any one forced to learn Spanish or any other language with the some kind of vehnement rhetoric that is used to push English? The idea that a culture must completely melt and fade into American culture is absurb and unfair, as it does place a higher value on one over the other. America is idealized as a melting pot, and when things melt together, both sides bleed into each other, not just all into one supposedly dominant ingrediant. Why is it such a scary thing for America to be "browned" as Bill O'Reily would say. America is not just a country of pilgrims. The first permanent European settlement in this country was spanish. Many Latinos that live in the southwest have been there for generations where they did not cross the border, the border crossed them. And the rhetoric out there labels Latinos as completely opposed to American values when, from a conservative point of view, most immigrants politically/culutrally fall into the Right's spectrum: Anti-abortion, Anti-gay marriage, stronger Christian values. The 2.5 kids, SUV, suburban ideal of America is unrealistic and many people who immigrate to this country are seeking that ideal. Immigrants want the American dream, is it really so bad that they keep a larger part of their culture and their language? The children of immigrants learn to speak English, it is not as if there is a strong resistence to it. There are not many, if any, immigrant mothers telling their native born children to never learn English. The people who come to this country do it because they want a better life and because they value America enough to think it can happen. Immigrants and the children of immigrants tend to be quite patriotic because here they have a chance for a good life, and clearly they didn't make a long, often dangerous trip into a foreign country because they wanted to be portrayed as monsters and villains. Immigrants and especially their children want to speak English, they simply want to speak Spanish too, and because they live in ghettos designed to keep certain groups of people together, many grow up hearing Spanish first and English second. Los Angeles is a perfect example of such as the city has been built around the principle that a huge man made river or freeway can keep ghettos separate from the rest of the city. Because of gentrification, these areas are the only ones affordable to immigrants and their children, ensuring that even US citizens, born on this soil, are pushed into areas where other languages take precedent. And not be too technical, Spanish is supposed to be protected under The Treaty Of Guadalupe in all lands taken by America after the Mexican American War. As for the protection of English, pretty much every service in this country is in English primarily. You can't argue in front of a court in another language, you have to speak English or use an interpreter. Any government agency is going to have English be a mandatory requirement for employment. English isn't going anywhere, it isn't under attack. We Latinos are not plotting the overthrow of the language and culture, despite what some may say. The passion for which people want to defend American culture is the same passion immigrants groups have to defend a piece of their culture in another place.

As someone who works in Education here, the literacy rate is deplorably low. Yes, some of that is due to children who grew up speaking other languages and find it difficult to learn another. Yet, instead of schools having adequately funded programs designed to accelerate this process of learning the language, children are forced into the back of the class, passed along by underpaid and overworked teachers while politicians and incredibly poor education reforms like No Child Left Behind make the issue worse by giving less funding to schools that need it the most. How can we blame these people that never had the chance to learn acceptable English? But from my experiences, many children who are illiterate or mostly functionally illiterate are not immigrants or even 1st generation Americans, they are simply working class kids, all colors of the rainbow, who have to go to overcrowded and poorly funded schools while taxpayer money goes to building more prisons, tax breaks for land developers responsible for gentrification, and generally ignoring everyone without a certain amount of social status. Los Angeles has had a poor literacy rate for a long time, America in general has one because our education system is a joke. It is easier to blame the people that are different, that supposedly "do not belong" than it is to realize that many of our social issues are our own fault.

It is also somewhat of an offensive stereotype that all Latinos breed like rabbits. Yes, Latinos tend to have more than a few children. But guess what, so does pretty much every ethnic group when they are working class. The more education and social status a person has, the less likely they are to have more than a single child. Working class people tend to have more conservative and religious social views which disapprove of birth control and sexual education that isn't abstinence only, and as the newest research done on abstience only education shows, it makes matters worse, not better.

It is really nothing more than political rhetoric to blame immigrants for almost every social problem in the country. Again, this was done to pretty much every group that immigrated to America, the same ideas, different target. The Irish were responsible for disease. The Italians were responsible for crime. Yadda Yadda. Right now it is Latinos since they are one of the largest and most visible. (The majority of spanish speaking immigrants nowadays, especially in Los Angeles, are from Central America). Immigration is brought up every few years to rally conservative and moderate voter bases and then ignored when politicians have manipulated the masses enough to ensure more time in office. The same tactic is used with Gay Marriage. Liberals do this too with abortion, gun laws, and separation of church and state.

Supporters of immigration vary widely, I've heard many an impassioned speech for immigration by legal immigrants and I've heard legal immigrants say the opposite. There are going to be people from all walks of life who have varied opinions and beliefs.

In the end of this long rant, I'd like to say that I appreciate the open discussion, especially those that chose to keep an air of respect and dialogue. One of the biggest problem with America is that we often keep quiet when we think we may question, challenge, or even offend, rather than airing grievances and starting a process that might actually solve problems rather than pretend they aren't there.

lemurking23 wrote:Who defines American culture?

Me and only me. Anyone says otherwise is a liar.

You make the Spanish colonization sound like fun and like some ancient organization. The indeginous people of the area are not the same as the Spanish. Those people that were there weren't Mexicans (hint: Mexico had not been invented yet). And while we did take some land that Mexico had previously held at one point, we beat them fair and square and now have to fight the Indians for it.

Making latino's out to be more like Bill O'rielly then he thinks isn't an argument I'd use. I know I like them less for being right wing. So they hate gays and the English language. Just so full of hate.

In all actuality, when I meet someone I don't think immigration status ever really pops into my head.

And remember, The northern Territories (California, Texas et al) have been in the US far longer than they were in Mexico. Mexico did not become Mexico until the 1820s. before that it was Spanish, with extremely few actual non-native Americans, probably less than 20,000 people. So we're talking 25 years or so as Mexico and more than 150 years as the US. Get over it.

edited: went back and sounds to hostile. If previously viewed I apologize.

I fully understand that the territories lost in the war had only recently broken free from being under colony control, but the people who were its citizens, mestizos, coyotes, creoles, and etc are the people that form the Latino identity today. It is a great matter of discussion amongst the Latino community, since we are a mix of a hundred different cultures put under one banner.

My argument is not this land necessarily belongs to one people, but rather that the modern Southwestern American Latino culture stems from this land, a mixing of Anglo, Spanish, Indigenous, African, Chinese, and Jewish roots. Since this land has been the US for 150 years, then clearly this culture is truly an American culture, and yes, part of the system is an influx of immigrants to keep that culture growing and evolving.

Thanks J, I did not take offense but I appreciate the precaution.

Again, I never mentioned that immigrants hate English, they want to speak it. It can be hard to learn a new language when you are ghettoized upon arrival. But yes, most newly arrived immigrants, legal or illegal, have more conservative views. They rarely get to exercise those views since the political party that is most closely aligned with those philosophy use them as a scapegoat when it is convenient.

lemurking23 wrote:I fully understand that the territories lost in the war had only recently broken free from being under colony control, but the people who were its citizens, mestizos, coyotes, creoles, and etc are the people that form the Latino identity today. It is a great matter of discussion amongst the Latino community, since we are a mix of a hundred different cultures put under one banner.

My argument is not this land necessarily belongs to one people, but rather that the modern Southwestern American Latino culture stems from this land, a mixing of Anglo, Spanish, Indigenous, African, Chinese, and Jewish roots. Since this land has been the US for 150 years, then clearly this culture is truly an American culture, and yes, part of the system is an influx of immigrants to keep that culture growing and evolving.

Thanks J, I did not take offense but I appreciate the precaution.

Again, I never mentioned that immigrants hate English, they want to speak it. It can be hard to learn a new language when you are ghettoized upon arrival. But yes, most newly arrived immigrants, legal or illegal, have more conservative views. They rarely get to exercise those views since the political party that is most closely aligned with those philosophy use them as a scapegoat when it is convenient.

Not sure about the political philosophy. The people I knew (legal immigrants) were socially conservative but had the full mix of opinion politically. but I don't think thats the point of your reply.

I agree it is a mix. Its a great mix (except for the Martians, man I hated those guys). My issue is with ILLEGAL immigration entirely and the sieve of open borders we have, and secondarily on the need that everyone have basic skills in a common primary language (OTT but everyone should be at the conversant level in a secondary language-excepting the aforementioned Martian of course, really we need to keep those guys out).

lemurking23 wrote:It is a great matter of discussion amongst the Latino community, since we are a mix of a hundred different cultures put under one banner.

That is awful. Thank god that is not done to Asians. Or Africans. Or Europeans. Or Jews. Or Muslims. Or Native Americans.

It's cultural emo!

lemurking23 wrote:My argument is not this land necessarily belongs to one people, but rather that the modern Southwestern American Latino culture stems from this land, a mixing of Anglo, Spanish, Indigenous, African, Chinese, and Jewish roots. Since this land has been the US for 150 years, then clearly this culture is truly an American culture, and yes, part of the system is an influx of immigrants to keep that culture growing and evolving.

I think you are oversimplifying latino history and lumping them all together. Tsk tsk. As apparently has to be reiterated over and over. This is not about immigrants, but illegal immigrants. Immigration in and of itself is not a bad thing.

lemurking23 wrote:Again, I never mentioned that immigrants hate English, they want to speak it.

Of course not, but it's funnier that way. Learn to laugh and you will live longer. A public service announcement told me so.

I think we're all sidestepping a fundamental issue. What are we doing about illegal Aliens? I snapped this photo of one just the other day-see how mad he got

Uh, don't even get me started on Martians and their Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulators.

Yea talking about briging down the neighborhood. Blow up a planet just to get a better view of Venus-how rude!

It's the insane amount of water-absorbing children/pet things they bring with them that make them the worst neighbors.

smart_alex wrote:From LEGAL immigrants!? Are you kidding. PPl who come here legally like the first generation of my family rarely have any sympathy for those that break the law to get here. My uncles, aunts and parents were paying taxes from day one. In the meantime complaining about how so many others come here at thier lesiure. Do you even know any legal immigrants? You have to be kidding. Those who follow the law usually dont respect those who dont.

You claim to speak for all legal immigrants do you? Seems kind of arrogant honestly. I helped organize the immigration march in Saint Paul, Mn last year. I know from personal experience that by far the most vocal and active members of our group (which numbered in the thousands) were either college students, legal immigrants, or the children of legal immigrants. Moreover, I'm the grandchild of a first generation Polish immigrant. She hates illegal immigrants yet constantly complains about how hard it is for people to come here legally from Europe. This is an absolutely oxymoronical position which I have no respect for. How can you hate a group of people for coming to America in search of better life while still believing that the law currently does not allow enough people in? You can't, not without some way of differentiating the two groups, and I can absolutely gurantee that such a seperation will not usually come from whether or not a person obeys the law. People break the law every day; whether they speed, jay-walk, steal (ie. music piracy), commit adulturey, or any other action in a long list of morally ambiguous "illegal" activities. I don't know about you, but my respect for someone is not contingent upon their obedience to an arbitrary code of behavior. I respect people who do what's right for themselves as something which is fundamentally seperate from what is legal. Respect and acceptance are about understanding the other person's position, not judging his adherence to your personal values.

Ahtman wrote:

lemurking23 wrote:It is a great matter of discussion amongst the Latino community, since we are a mix of a hundred different cultures put under one banner.

That is awful. Thank god that is not done to Asians. Or Africans. Or Europeans. Or Jews. Or Muslims. Or Native Americans.

It's cultural emo!

Just because something is done does not make it right.

jfrazell wrote:1. Tell that to the Native Americans- you sure can eliminate a culture.

Evolution is not an equal process. Native American culture has influenced the dominant American culture through art, music, and history. The influence is not pure, but it is still there.

dogma wrote:You claim to speak for all legal immigrants do you? Seems kind of arrogant honestly.

Yet somehow when you do it doesn't. No wait, it still does.

dogma wrote:Just because something is done does not make it right.

I know you are trying, but just because something is done also does not make a thing wrong. You need to try harder. I know you have a better answer that isn't as glib and may have more meaning.

All groups get lumped in together by idiots and even some by unthinking smart people. Using the reasoning that one group has it happen is not really any kind of reason when it happens to practically all. You can't pull the beautiful snowflake argument.

dogma wrote:Evolution is not an equal process. Native American culture has influenced the dominant American culture through art, music, and history. The influence is not pure, but it is still there.

You're coming from just kind of a gut thought on this aren't you? No formal training in Native American Studies I'm guessing? No one has said that native groups have had no influence on culture at all. That does not change that some native tribes were just wiped plain and simple. That you keep talking about it like it is a homogeneous group just further illustrates the problem.

Exactly which evolutionary theory are you positing expertise in? Apparently you know exactly how it works, and since there are multiple evolutionary theories I am curious as to which one is right, and apparently you know.

How do you feel about Beringia?

smart_alex wrote:It must be self dilusion. Many of these people dont even know how to read and use that as thier excuse for not being able to fill out an application for a visa. Because of this Los Angeles is rapidly becoming America's 1st third world city (as far as literacy rate). I dont know what would trigger the thought in somone's mind where if they have no education, money, future, or career whatsoever that it is a good idea to have 12 kids.

Have you read the Internets lately? It's like a third world wide web.

Web 3.0. I has illitertes!

malfred wrote:Have you read the Internets lately? It's like a third world wide web.

Web 3.0. I has illitertes!

Illiteracy? On my the interwebs?

1 mst g0 8log ab0u7 741s!

malfred wrote:

smart_alex wrote:It must be self dilusion. Many of these people dont even know how to read and use that as thier excuse for not being able to fill out an application for a visa. Because of this Los Angeles is rapidly becoming America's 1st third world city (as far as literacy rate). I dont know what would trigger the thought in somone's mind where if they have no education, money, future, or career whatsoever that it is a good idea to have 12 kids.

Have you read the Internets lately? It's like a third world wide web.

Web 3.0. I has illitertes!

Hoo are teaching the childerns?