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Accuracy by Volume wrote:@gdurant- Correct me if im wrong but running a wyche cult army swaps the force organization by making your warriors/raiders elites and your wyches troops? If thats the case take 2x 10 warriors /w 2x dark lances each. One mob of 20x warriors plain and 2x humunc's with WWP have one behind the 20 man squad and keep the other by your DL squads just in case. I beleive that if you could minimize the threat to your skimmers during the first two turns you dont even necessarily have to push the WWP forward. I also dont think that 4x dark lances alone can do that. Any ideas on how to increase the armies ability to take out anti skimmer threats without deploying the whole army?

I've only recently started playing with the Wych Cult myself, so please take my advice with a grain of salt, but I'll share with you what I've found to work.

In a Wych Cult the things that do the killing are the Wyches-any point spent on other things is an unnecessary distraction, outside of the minimum you need to keep the army flexible.

At the start of the game (2,000 pts.) I will have on the board:

x3 Elite Warrior squads of 8, all with x2 DL, x2 with WWP Sybarites
x2 Ravagers (DL/x2 D.)

And that's it. This is much more of a gambler's approach, and against an enemy with significant indirect fire, it is dangerous. However, there should be enough terrain to keep one of the portal squads competely out of LOS of anything while the other can be placed in a riskier locale. The third squad is a distraction that might also kill some things, while the Ravagers provide extra Dark Lances, some anti-MEQ firepower, and fast objective takers.

Once the portals come down, out comes:

x50 Wyches in Raiders (Horrofex is the only upgrade), x2 blasters per squad, with a Dracon and Lelith and their retinues in the HQ squads (basically 3 troops choices, 2 HQ)
In a tourney or an environment where I expect to face Necrons one squad gets the Goblet of Spite and Haywire.

If the portals didn't die, there will be a lot of hurt from turn 2 on . . .

Edit: going to your question-fundamentally, the army is not all that concerned about anti-skimmer threats. The purpose of the Raiders (in Wych Cult WWP) is to give the Wyches extra movement. If they can pin some Devestators or down a Landspeeder, sure, they'll live longer. But in the end, unless you're doing quite well, they will die. Once they've disgorged their cargo, it is unfortunate that they will die, but they will. In the meantime, the Wyches do their thing and all is well.

The WWP army really comes into it's own in games larger than 1000 points. In 1000 points, you're either spending a lot more proportionate points on two WWPs (that is, 100 of 1000 is a lot more that 100 of 1750), or you're only taking one. Both are not good options for obvious reasons. There's also a lot less that can come out of the portal at the same time, reducing the shock factor in WWP armies.

You also loose a lot of the utility of coming out of two parts of the board instead of just one. In 1000 points, there should still be enough terrain to take a couple of wych squads with raiders and terrain hop into combat. This may mean dropping the raider squads for sniper squads, but that's just preference.

-Leo037

@Alpharius

The only reason why id say I really want to take out anti skimmer threats as much as possible is seeing what they were able to do as I eliminated the orks 2 real possibilities (lootas and some big shootas) I basically flew around the board zapping the gak out of everything laughing as he tried to catch up with a powerclaw. I just feel that the cheap skimmers are amazing for their point cost and if I reduce the threat to them, they have to shoot everything they have left at my skimmers to down like maybe 1-2 a turn (wooptie gak a big 110 points) or ignore them, and I feel theyll regret that.

Accuracy by Volume wrote:@Alpharius

The only reason why id say I really want to take out anti skimmer threats as much as possible is seeing what they were able to do as I eliminated the orks 2 real possibilities (lootas and some big shootas) I basically flew around the board zapping the gak out of everything laughing as he tried to catch up with a powerclaw.

My comments were for a Wych Cult set-up-with 5 or 6 or more Wych squads if you feel like it on the board with Lelith . . . you can get a pretty much guaranteed charge against the things that would bother your skimmers when the Wyches come on table-nicely solving the problem (Lelith's retinue picks 12" charge, decent odds with that many squads of rolling a 1 and having two squads so blessed). That leaves your skimmers free to fly around at will without too much threatening them. Even if one or two threats are left around, you'll get to them given time-and if there's one squad of Lootas you couldn't reach, the best they can do is still x1 Raider/turn.

Alpharius/Greg, this is one list that I am not sure I want to face. Normally, I smoke DE armies due to the poor list design and inexperienced generals that play them. I am pretty sure that you are going to be an exception to that rule. My Nidz will be hard pressed to match up with your Wych Cult. I may have to focus on Mech Eldar and drop pod marines against you.

Darrian

Is the FW drop pod's bottom bigger or smaller than the area occupied by the 3" template? That might be a rather deciding factor in a Cult vs. drop pods match-up. And Mech Eldar would be a very close match-up: I look forward to it.

I wondered when someone was going to bring that up.
A long long time ago in a galaxy far away....
Some black templar player tankshock my warriors away (ballsy I know) and crouched on my portals with landraiders for the rest of the game.

bastard...

er..Its not legal to stand on the portals, they are considered impassible iirc. But you can surround them, and since models can't move within 1" of each other unless charging, the DE player can't deploy from the portal.

I'd love to see the citation on that if you can find it-it would save me a whole lot of worrying on the matter. But as far as I know it's perfectly legal to drop a vehicle/pod on them.

Only foot troops can't deploy if the WWP is covered. Simmers still can because they can just move over the enemy models. Models coming in from reserve count as the front of their base being at the "board edge", so as long as they can get completely past the enemy models, their OK. So that means what? Warp beasts can't deploy? Whoopty do.

Besides, if someone tries that in a tourny, they're defiantly getting dinged in sportsmanship.

-Leo037

That's why I don't run foot squads in my WWP armies that start in reserve.

All Skimmers, and who cares if they cover them? Just more stuff to eat up.

If you have 3 squads of warriors two of which are carrying the WWP do you have to inform your opponent which squads have them, or can you just note it and later reveal it?

Also if your sybarite is deploying the portal can you still fire the DL's or is the entire squad considered preoccupied?

Currently your list is secret.

Even in a friendly game I wouldn't feel compelled to tell, it'd be like saying where my demonhost was in the last Chaos book.

Only the model deploying cannot move, but if anyone moves it cannot be deployed. Thus the IC's.

Accuracy, the act of deploying a web way occurs in the shooting phase and can be done in place of moving or shooting for the Sybarite. Since the whole unit must not move for the Sybarite to move they are stuck. However nowhere does it say that the act consumes anyone else's shooting phase so they are free to fire.

Also the source for the ruling on the portal being impassable is the codex update 4.01. It says models must surround the portal in order to prevent you from being able to move onto the board. It also says to "think of the edge of the portal as a small piece of your own table edge". You have essentially made a circular piece of table edge on the battlefield. Your opponent can no more step in the portal than he can step off the edge of the table voluntarily. Please note that in my view this wording also disallows skimmers from coming onto the table through a completely surrounded webway.

Thanks for everything guys, im sure ill have more questions later on, but im off to bed g'nite.

Hmmm skimmers can move over enemy troops, thankfully.

I've moved many a skimmer over enemy troops on the board edge, no one's ever batted an eye.

Of course I suppose if I couldn't get past them, I'd wonder how they got 21" of Orks in my deployment zone. lol

Ok

Ravenger = 105 points without other upgrades
Telos = 100 points and cant be upgraded
Wyches can take raiders so if you have 4 troops you can still have 5 raiders on the board (excluding HQ raiders).
Another option is couple a Archon with some Grotesques and put them on a raider

Also, i don't have the codex infront of me so i cant be sure of the AP of splinter cannons, i know splinter rifles are AP5 ST3 though

Alpharius Walks wrote:I've only recently started playing with the Wych Cult myself, so please take my advice with a grain of salt, but I'll share with you what I've found to work.

In a Wych Cult the things that do the killing are the Wyches-any point spent on other things is an unnecessary distraction, outside of the minimum you need to keep the army flexible.

At the start of the game (2,000 pts.) I will have on the board:

x3 Elite Warrior squads of 8, all with x2 DL, x2 with WWP Sybarites
x2 Ravagers (DL/x2 D.)

And that's it. This is much more of a gambler's approach, and against an enemy with significant indirect fire, it is dangerous. However, there should be enough terrain to keep one of the portal squads competely out of LOS of anything while the other can be placed in a riskier locale. The third squad is a distraction that might also kill some things, while the Ravagers provide extra Dark Lances, some anti-MEQ firepower, and fast objective takers.

Once the portals come down, out comes:

x50 Wyches in Raiders (Horrofex is the only upgrade), x2 blasters per squad, with a Dracon and Lelith and their retinues in the HQ squads (basically 3 troops choices, 2 HQ)
In a tourney or an environment where I expect to face Necrons one squad gets the Goblet of Spite and Haywire.

If the portals didn't die, there will be a lot of hurt from turn 2 on . . .

Edit: going to your question-fundamentally, the army is not all that concerned about anti-skimmer threats. The purpose of the Raiders (in Wych Cult WWP) is to give the Wyches extra movement. If they can pin some Devestators or down a Landspeeder, sure, they'll live longer. But in the end, unless you're doing quite well, they will die. Once they've disgorged their cargo, it is unfortunate that they will die, but they will. In the meantime, the Wyches do their thing and all is well.

Let me apologize for the double post, but warrior squads are 10 to 20 troops, and only 1 may be upgraded to a Sybarites

Yes, only one model in a unit may be upgraded to a sybarite.

Darrian

My guess would be that he meant x8 basic warriors and x2 DL in each squad for 10 total. Also im guessing x2 sybarites with WWP was just showing that he took 1 in only two of the squads and gave them each WWP.

All in all it would probably look like this

Squad 1:
x10 Warriors w/2x DL

Squad2:
x10 Warriors w/2x DL and Sybarite with WWP

Squad 3:
x10 Warriors w/2x DL and Sybarite with WWP

You can do that, but you run risks against indirect fire. Worse still if you don't go first, you run the risk of a very fast army getting into your warrior squads and chasing you off the board or destroying you completely.

Accuracy by Volume got it right-sorry for the confusion.

Stelek-it certainly does run a few risks against Indirect Fire and fast enemies. But, at the end of the day, Wych Cult is a gambler's army-playing it too conservatively dilutes the army's strengths and just isn't as much of a thrill.

Also, since you can always choose not to start units in the Portal . . . if the opposition or lack of terrain makes you uncomfortable with your odds of surviving turn 1, no reason not to start some more things on the board than usual.

So general opinion question, are talos worth it considering they replace my Ravagers, and if I do take ravagers Should I deploy one at the beggining with 3x DL?

EDIT - replied to 1st page -- irrelevant now

There is some very good advise in this thread and some very bad. As a long time DE player here are my thoughts:

Never take incubi. Ever. For any reason. Really I mean it, never take them.
25 points a pop for T3 model that moves 6", has no long range gun, and whose only transport option is a tin can? No thanks. You're looking at 200+ points that can be either completely ignored (on foot) or they breathe on the Raider and then ignore it. Unless of course they want free VPs by destroying it with guns.

Raiders are there as a troop deployment option...that is it. If you look at them they will explode. Never put points into them, those are points that will be lost. Horrorfexes and other upgrades are just wasted points. Never take them. They might actually be worth the points once every 5 or 6 games...but don't hold your breath.

Never take splinter cannons. Ever. No, not even then...NEVER do it.
You have a 24" range gun that's S4...its a glorified blaster. In order to fire you have to be 24" away which is within range of essentially all anti-troop weapons. Further at this close range you cannot take advantage of any cover. You really want to expose a squad of T3 5+ units to anti-infantry guns? No thanks, I prefer actually being able to use my units.
I can already predict the responses, but you keep them in a Raider and fire out of it because its open topped! AV10 open topped skimmers are even MORE vulnerable than a squad of Warriors, horrible idea.
Your other option is the Dark Lance, one of the best weapons in the game...this isn't even an option. The only reason the cannon is in the codex is to see who is silly enough to actually take it.

Mandrakes. Hmm ok its a warrior at double the price, who has no fleet and no weapons...its 100% useless. The only way this unit could actually help is if your opponent laughs at you for taking them and chokes on his own laughter.

DE can be a very strong list, absolutely. Warriors with Dark Lances are an incredible value. Wyches are a beast in asasult. Archons are a nightmare for other armies. WWP is a great deployment system. Just stay away from the traps!