Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Question: Have the worst codex armies in the 40k universe some correlation with the authors of the respective codices?
JJ has written the DA codex, and his ideas influenced the preliminary BA codex.

JJ has been the lead man for DA since 2nd Edition. He seemed to really drop the ball this time, but it's probably because he did too much with the codex at once. If he and the team had designed the ultramarines redux first and branched out from there, the DA codex would be much better.

Heck, take a look at the BA codex. You can run any of the units in there that really feel like BA and win consistently. (I'm referencing Baal preds, vet assault squads, death company, and furioso dreads, btw) DA get Ravenwing and Deathwing, which on paper look awesome. In practice, working alone or in unison, they only work at certain point values.

Some of JJs other projects include the old Space Wolves and Apocalypse. SW was awesome for when it was released, though is in need of an update fairly soon. Apoc is one of the best things to hit 40K fans in a long time, even if it's not my thing.

I think there needs to be a distinction between saying "DA is the weakest codex" and saying "It is impossible to win with DA, they are hopeless, etc."

DA have a few builds, some nice tricks, and a couple of potent units. With good draws and skilled play, they can compete pretty well.

The question then, is would the same draws and a skilled player do better with vanilla marines? Part of me thinks they would.

Additionally, let's not confuse worst codex from worst build. The DH codex, for example, includes assassins, IG, landraiders, stormtroopers, and other units that balance the weaknesses of the Grey Knights.

Pure Grey Knights are a "build," or a design philosophy. While it's a tempting one, and certianly a consistent one fluffwise, from a gaming perspective cherry picking those units would be like building an all scout army, or a tau army with no skimmers. It's a mostly aesthetic choice.

I don't disagree that the DA codex is lacking in some areas, it totally is and compared to some of the other specific marine chapter codex's out there (BA, SW, BT...) it is probably more similar to the Vanilla codex than any of them. It does have it's advantages though, and a few unique things that still make it far from a weak codex.
The guys over at B & C, for the majority will also say that the codex is lacking in some areas, but they have been able to work around that and really build some strong lists while still using some of the uniqueness offered by the DA.

An example, one of the posters, mughi3, always manages to utilize either RW or DW or both in all his armies. I can't recall seeing any tac squads in any of the armies he lists and in all the battle reports he posts, more often than not he comes away with a major victory if not a massacre.

Another example, when the codex first came out, I threw together an untried death-raven list for a tournament (thats right, first time playing the new 'dex and in a tourny no less). I think I had two bike squads, two terminator squads w/ belial, a LRC, and some speeders. I ended up undefeated, coming in second at the tournament.

I wasn't trying to start a big argument, but I just had to disagree that DA is one of the weakest codex's. Lacking in some areas, maybe, but far from weak.

@Deadshane1 - I have lately been running three dreads in my DA army and these guys rock. In the last tourney (which I won, by the way) none of my dreads was even immobilized, let alone destroyed. The ability to run three Ven. Dreads for DA is incredible. They were my fire support for my mostly Ravenwing army.

Mission Syzergy: Welcome to Dakka, please check out the DA tactics thread in the Tactics Sub-Forum.

Dark Angels were my first 40k force and I am happy with the new rules. Its competitive with the right builds, just not top-tier. I can't beat Nidzilla, but then again, most armies can't so I'm in good company.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Mission Syzergy wrote:@Deadshane1 - I have lately been running three dreads in my DA army and these guys rock. In the last tourney (which I won, by the way) none of my dreads was even immobilized, let alone destroyed. The ability to run three Ven. Dreads for DA is incredible. They were my fire support for my mostly Ravenwing army.

Good job, sounds like you know how to run dreadnoughts.

That doesnt change the fact that they're grossly overpriced in the DA codex when compared to Vanilla marines. Both have the same capabilities and roles in each codex, yet the DA one is pricyer. Call me stupid but I cant see the reason.

Instead of three expensive Dreads, a DA army can run three cheap Predators for fire support in a RW army; cheaper than in the Vanilla codex.

yea, thats one nice point in the DA codex, but it winds up buried under the avalance of overpriced and uncustomisable units. It doenst make up for all the shortcomings.

When marines are able to bring a lascannon to the table at 95 (?) pts in a troops unit and the DA can only do the same by spending 200pts, there's a problem.

Build a DA force as good as you can, I GUARANTEE that you can build a Vanilla list with close to the same types of forces that outnumbers and outguns the DA's....thats the problem. You can do this even with a few cheap preds.

When people start to mention the 'advantage' of Combat Squads, I laugh as well. Sure they're nice, but Vanilla marines can do this as well. A good DA list at 1500-1850 that uses Tac squads in this context will bring NO MORE than 4 squads due to the expensive cost. Sarge, special, and heavy wind up costing more than 200 pts, add a rhino and you're getting up to 250+, again, depending on wargear. If the DA gets three FULL squads, a vanilla marine can combat squad JUST as effectively as the DA by simply filling up his troop selections in the FOC....and reserve missions dont mess with his split.

Don't get me wrong, I love my DA's, but they are certainly handicapped by the codex.

....giving the DA's some credit however, DH is definatly a weaker list to build an army from.

DH's gets my vote for crappiest list out there. Even the DA codex isnt that bad. DH's make great allies, or at least the inquisitor with the magic deck does.

....but as a stand alone army....bleh!

Well, the Codex is based on JJ ideas and work.
The Vanilla Codex is better in many respects. However, Sammael, RW Assault squadrons (able to split into up to 4 units), and cheap Predators are strong points in the Codex.

My vote's going to have to go to WH and DH. Grey Knight Terminators definitely make great allies, but as a pure army, I don't think either of these lists can compete.

CK

just to address mission syzergy's point about DA not being the worst codex: it doesn't have to be craptastic and unplayable to rank as the weakest codex, it just has to be weaker than all the other books out there. this game isn't balanced as well as i'd like, but at least it's balanced well enough that the weakest armies can still win games.

i play DA. i make it work. but when facing off against the toughest armies played by good generals, there's no question that my necrons perform better.

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:My vote's going to have to go to WH and DH. Grey Knight Terminators definitely make great allies, but as a pure army, I don't think either of these lists can compete.

CK

No way WH can be even considered here. Pure Sisters, and Sisters with a smattering of guard/Inquisitors is STRONG. When the sisters min/max a driveby list....look out.

Well, the current release schedule rumor over in the N&R forum has the new SM codex coming out in Oct. I expact that the new SM dex will even things out again (needing 10 men to get a heavy, more expensive dreads, cheaper preds, etc).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Must be lucky I guess - Arcanacon 2008, largest 40K tournament in the Southern Hemisphere. Five wins, one draw, no loss - third in battle overall. Force pure GK!

Cheers

Rick

Is the DA codex considered weak by people just because the Vanilla codex has more custumizability still? I agree to a point that when compared to each other, the DA are a lot more strict as far as set up. As some one else said though, that will possibly change later this year when they redo the nilla codex this fall. From the way the rumors sound and from the recent marine codex's (BA and DA), the nilla armies will possibly be structured about the same (no more 6 man las/plas hopefully).

@corinth - I can see your point about a weak codex still being able to win. I still have to (loyally) disagree that the DA codex is one of the weakest. It may not be a contender for one of the strongest, but I will atleast say that its some where in the middle, probably about where all the marine codex's are, probably in this order - Vanilla, BA/DA, SW, BT

@wuestenfux - I use the dreads as my anti-tank, I use two preds w/HB-sponc,autocan. and a whirlwind for my anti-infantry. the preds are good for the price, but they don't have the survivability that the dreads have. Especially now with the rumors of 5th ed. they are going to get hamstrung with the st4 deffensive weapon roll, while the dreads are just going to get better.